Fruit grower voted Leave - sorry now!
Discussion
ATG said:
crankedup said:
Nope, never been involved getting youngsters into work, other than our own two.
Your telling me that youngsters are hardly worth the air they breath? This seems to me to be a very very broad brush. Our UK growth is still growing, stock markets have done well and I can buy fairly much whatever I wish within my means. My generation are retired or retiring, people are still working grinding away the week, I do not accept that youngsters are bone idle, sure. percentage will be but that is no different to any other past decades.
To much media attention and gossip on social media creates mass pov which is usually derived from unqualified negative aspects drawn from rare events and exaggerated, imo.
I genuinely don't know if you're deliberately misrepresenting what people are saying on this thread or if you're really misunderstanding it this badly.Your telling me that youngsters are hardly worth the air they breath? This seems to me to be a very very broad brush. Our UK growth is still growing, stock markets have done well and I can buy fairly much whatever I wish within my means. My generation are retired or retiring, people are still working grinding away the week, I do not accept that youngsters are bone idle, sure. percentage will be but that is no different to any other past decades.
To much media attention and gossip on social media creates mass pov which is usually derived from unqualified negative aspects drawn from rare events and exaggerated, imo.
anonymous said:
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I'm assuming your last sentence is missing a "not" 
The problem is I'm not sure we have good enough data to be able to say for sure, do we?
I suspect you may well be right. But how many is too many? (My right wing tendencies would suggest '1'. And I know there are more than that
).It must be 000s. 10s of? 100s of?
I also think we need to be wary of the "it's small beer in the overall scheme of things" line of argument. We have demonstrated over the last 7yrs of not having Labour pissing money up the wall that as soon as you try and tackle expenditure, every self interest group comes out of the woodwork and everything suddenly becomes "yes, but look at them", "it's not fair" and "it's peanuts in the overall scheme of things" in one combination or other.
It all needs addressing. Even if the volume of people is small (let's say 100k) and even if they receive a relatively small amount (let's say £100 a week each) it still adds up (0.5bn a year?). Personally I'd be happy to spend 10% more avoiding that sort of cost to adjust the mindsets of even that number of people. We can't keep shrugging our shoulders at things like this IMO. We've been doing it too long already.
I like it when you say people are conditioned to work maybe that is the problem in our so called modern society.
How many jobs are done by people day in day out and they hate .Unhealthy shift patterns or stress with so many people can't cope with.How to change this way of working where the majority of people are happy and fulfilled is the big question.
Ask how many people would stop working tomorrow.You know the answer.>;)
How many jobs are done by people day in day out and they hate .Unhealthy shift patterns or stress with so many people can't cope with.How to change this way of working where the majority of people are happy and fulfilled is the big question.
Ask how many people would stop working tomorrow.You know the answer.>;)
crankedup said:
Try the third option, maybe I just disagree with your pov.
You show no sign of understanding what my pov is, so you're not in a position to disagree with it. For example I said "longterm unemployed" and you thought or pretended to think I was talking about "youngsters".
You said, "Your (sic) telling me that youngsters are hardly worth the air they breath?" I said nothing remotely like that. Neither did I say they were bone idle.
Why not read what people actually say and respond to that?
anonymous said:
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I agree with virtuality everything you've said, but I'd qualify "it's not a huge problem". It's not a huge problem for the economy. It is a huge problem for the individuals themselves. Tackling the problem isn't going to allow us to tap some enormous new pool of worker talent, nor will it plug the gaping holes in public finance, but chipping away at it can dramatically improve the quality of people's lives so it is worth pursuing as an end in itself.I don't work in the sector, but you hear stories when you work in the industry, which happen to us on a lower scale.
The crops we are talking about being harvested are very perishable, pretty much as soon as you cut a lettuce it is deteriorating. From what I gather they are harvested and processed within minutes in the field on a mobile pack house and can be in the shop in 6 hours, which is incredible.
It may be different now with the supermarkets getting a kicking in the media and growers getting bigger where they have more clout. But I've heard stories of a supermarket ordering a load of veg. The veg has been picked and delivered on time and to spec. The supermarket then decides they don't need them after all, because they didn't sell the last lot and don't pay the grower. So he's now left with a load of veg that's deteriorating and he's unlikely to get it elsewhere before it' too late. Not so bad if they do this with a load of pallets of baked bean tins, you'd just take a hit on the haulage, but not with something so perishable. I've also heard of them having a breakdown which causes the produce to rot and not paying the grower because the load was rotten, when it was their fault it was rotten. Then when they do pay it's on 90 days. Obviously it may be a little different, but, for example, we had a load of wheat rejected (not a perishable product, just a pain) on a Friday afternoon for low protein
so it had to come back to use and tipped back on the heap. The driver said it happens a lot and just use low protein as an excuse when they are full up and have nowhere to tip.
I'm sure the growers were bloody love it, like Kevin Keegan, if there was enough money in the job to pay 30 quid an hour for basic labour, because it would mean they were coining it in, but there isn't.
The crops we are talking about being harvested are very perishable, pretty much as soon as you cut a lettuce it is deteriorating. From what I gather they are harvested and processed within minutes in the field on a mobile pack house and can be in the shop in 6 hours, which is incredible.
It may be different now with the supermarkets getting a kicking in the media and growers getting bigger where they have more clout. But I've heard stories of a supermarket ordering a load of veg. The veg has been picked and delivered on time and to spec. The supermarket then decides they don't need them after all, because they didn't sell the last lot and don't pay the grower. So he's now left with a load of veg that's deteriorating and he's unlikely to get it elsewhere before it' too late. Not so bad if they do this with a load of pallets of baked bean tins, you'd just take a hit on the haulage, but not with something so perishable. I've also heard of them having a breakdown which causes the produce to rot and not paying the grower because the load was rotten, when it was their fault it was rotten. Then when they do pay it's on 90 days. Obviously it may be a little different, but, for example, we had a load of wheat rejected (not a perishable product, just a pain) on a Friday afternoon for low protein
so it had to come back to use and tipped back on the heap. The driver said it happens a lot and just use low protein as an excuse when they are full up and have nowhere to tip. I'm sure the growers were bloody love it, like Kevin Keegan, if there was enough money in the job to pay 30 quid an hour for basic labour, because it would mean they were coining it in, but there isn't.
anonymous said:
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You're taking idealism even further now pim. We need to reel it in, not play it out!I would be surprised if the %age of people answering yes to your question wasn't well over 80%. I'd probably be surprised if it wasn't 95%+!! (I'd be in that group). Sadly we have to pay our way, so for the vast majority of us that option simply doesn't exist.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
So as an analogy is that why nobody came out to investigate when my car was broken into not so long ago... too difficult to deal with with limited resources available and not worthwhile? To openly state that the feckless will just be allowed to carry on as they are, IMO, could even act as an active recruiting sergeant to for even more to do the same............in fact I would go as far as to say if I could have provided a better life for my family by sitting on my arris rather than going to work there is a good chance I might have even done it myself.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on what to do / not to do with the feckless.
ATG said:
crankedup said:
It's so far removed from reality, people will happily work for a fair return in thier pocket. You seem to have a jaundiced view of people that need to work at the lower end of pay scales. What may have o cured in your professional life to have inflicted this misguided predudice can only be imagined. Personally I have thought that immigrant workers took advantage of the EU regulations, came to the UK and earned good money, by thier standards, and then went home.
I have yet to meet an immigrant worker who is lazy, but I remain extremely sceptical about there being a level playing field.
It's not a jaundiced view. Have you ever spent any time trying to help long-term unemployed people get into work? Try it yourself or speak to someone who has. The problems are not potential employers or the wages on offer. I'm afraid it's usually squarely in the head of the unemployed person. Pick and mix from wildly unrealistic expectations, no grasp that most work is quite hard and fairly dull, no grasp that doing what you are asked to do is not optional, fatalism bordering on mental illness, an astounding ability to misinterpret feedback, defensiveness bordering on mental illness. The time and effort required to nurse these people into employability is huge. It's social care, and you cannot expect the private sector to shoulder that.I have yet to meet an immigrant worker who is lazy, but I remain extremely sceptical about there being a level playing field.
Read Willy Nilly's posts on this thread. Do you think there is room on the trailer for a bunch of social workers to hold the hands of the new, expensive, home-grown pickers?
Edited by ATG on Sunday 25th June 23:53
crankedup said:
ATG said:
crankedup said:
Try the third option, maybe I just disagree with your pov.
You show no sign of understanding what my pov is, so you're not in a position to disagree with it. For example I said "longterm unemployed" and you thought or pretended to think I was talking about "youngsters".
You said, "Your (sic) telling me that youngsters are hardly worth the air they breath?" I said nothing remotely like that. Neither did I say they were bone idle.
Why not read what people actually say and respond to that?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
People only get away with what they are allowed to get away with IMO sorry to mix metaphors but give them an inch.School education won't, IMO, stop kids becoming feckless themselves if they are brought up in a family where generations have seen being feckless as a way of life and have been "educated" in this by their parents..... you make good points as to why they should be allowed to carry on being feckless but I don't think everything should be measured in solely in terms of money like you do....as I said we shall have to agree to disagree.
Europa1 said:
I did despair slightly at a letter in Metro not that long ago in which a young person seemed to be arguing that the reason no young Brits would do jobs like fruit picking was the fault of the older generation for telling them to go to university.
Well they have a point, plus most careers advisors turn their noses up at manual work. It's endemic. anonymous said:
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Education alone doesn't do it either, though. The mindset even infects certain quarters as they go through education. Kids knowing their rights, and knowing what they will be entitled to the second they leave school.I agree it has to be part of the solution. But other factors have to come into play too. As you note, it's a complex problem that is unlikely to have a single solution.
anonymous said:
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Agreed!alfie2244 said:
The problem with you is your knowitall arrogance clouding your judgement and thinking you know what drives my view......I can assure you that you don't and you can stick your "charity" where sun don't shine oh wise one. 
...
Now why did you take that route...? Nobody needs to try and prove how quickly threads in NPE can descend as there are plenty enough examples already ...
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