New diesel and petrol cars banned from UK roads by 2030
Discussion
Order66 said:
Jazzy Jag said:
So, as well as range anxiety and not being able to suddenly pop out if I have to, I now have to keep one eye on my watch incase I out stay my welcome at the charger and whacked with a huge bill?
The app alerts you with about 15 minutes to go. No madness, works extremely well. Enough time to finish your coffee/s
t and move your car - would you sit at a petrol pump for an extended period if not filling?I drive to the tube station, where I will need to charge my car to make it home again.
I get the tube into town but have to wait for the app to tell me that I have to go back to the car and move it, half way through the day?
Jazzy Jag said:
Ok. Let's say that I take my wife to London, shopping, ad I have done before.
I drive to the tube station, where I will need to charge my car to make it home again.
I get the tube into town but have to wait for the app to tell me that I have to go back to the car and move it, half way through the day?
You won't find a supercharger at the tube station. A 22kw charger is most likely and be numerous, and acceptable to park at for hours on end.I drive to the tube station, where I will need to charge my car to make it home again.
I get the tube into town but have to wait for the app to tell me that I have to go back to the car and move it, half way through the day?
Superchargers are mostly found in places where you are "filling up" and continuing the journey, and not jumping on a tube and disappearing for hours on end. Why would you need a supercharger in this circumstance? An absolute positive of a BEV is that it can charge while you go and do something else.
In the 6000 miles I've had a BEV I would estimate I've "wasted" 15 mins waiting for a charge. Compare this to what, 15 times standing at a petrol pump? The reality is the very few times you wait for a charge are more than compensated for against the time taken to fill up at a pump.
Max_Torque said:
Basic capitalism tells us
if demand > supply price goes up
if demand < supply, price goes down
But it also tells us that if the price of something goes up, there is more profit to be made, and so more people will start making it, ie supply increases. It is this fundamental "balance" that makes our system work. The important factor however is that there is a lag between the two events, so typically the cost of something is higher for a while, and then as the increased supply comes on line the cost falls back to where it was before, or actually, often slgihtly less (because economies of scale drive competition.
This is why the "rate of change" is so important. If you 3 million extra tonnes of copper next year, you're going to have to pay a LOT for it, but if you need that three million tonnes extra in 20 years, you have plenty of time to put the addiotnal supply chain in place, and so you won't pay more for it!
I suspect I've dealt with a lot more digging in the ground than you have. Access in an issue- you generally extract the easier stuff before the harder stuff. When we want to access faster we have to go for the difficult stuff as well. Your "basic capitalism" might be aware that this will typically cause the price to rise. It sure as hell won't cause the price to drop as you suggest it might. Deny it all you want but that won't alter things.if demand > supply price goes up
if demand < supply, price goes down
But it also tells us that if the price of something goes up, there is more profit to be made, and so more people will start making it, ie supply increases. It is this fundamental "balance" that makes our system work. The important factor however is that there is a lag between the two events, so typically the cost of something is higher for a while, and then as the increased supply comes on line the cost falls back to where it was before, or actually, often slgihtly less (because economies of scale drive competition.
This is why the "rate of change" is so important. If you 3 million extra tonnes of copper next year, you're going to have to pay a LOT for it, but if you need that three million tonnes extra in 20 years, you have plenty of time to put the addiotnal supply chain in place, and so you won't pay more for it!
Order66 said:
Jazzy Jag said:
So, as well as range anxiety and not being able to suddenly pop out if I have to, I now have to keep one eye on my watch incase I out stay my welcome at the charger and whacked with a huge bill?
The app alerts you with about 15 minutes to go. No madness, works extremely well. Enough time to finish your coffee/st and move your car - would you sit at a petrol pump for an extended period if not filling?ts.FiF said:
Order66 said:
Jazzy Jag said:
So, as well as range anxiety and not being able to suddenly pop out if I have to, I now have to keep one eye on my watch incase I out stay my welcome at the charger and whacked with a huge bill?
The app alerts you with about 15 minutes to go. No madness, works extremely well. Enough time to finish your coffee/st and move your car - would you sit at a petrol pump for an extended period if not filling?ts.Jazzy Jag said:
2030 August bank holiday, the queue for a charger at Taunton Deane Services
Can’t remember whether I’ve said it on this thread or not, but IMO the problem of bank holiday charging encapsulates the inevitable challenge with “journey charging”.Right now, we all use “journey charging”. Doesn’t matter whether we do 10 miles a day or 500, we all go to the petrol station and spend money. The infrastructure cost is spread over everyone, and revenue comes from everyone.
In an electric world, that model changes. Most people, most of the time, will charge from home. Last year, I visited a petrol station every week - I was doing a whopping commute on top of leisure driving. That would have reduced to about 3 or 4 visits if I had started with a full tank every day - those rare (but very important) times when I need to do big miles.
Journey charging will become a distress purchase. Someone needing it is an edge case, and edge cases need to be prepared for inconvenience and cost, because there is no business case to support them. The putative chargers on the M5 will be absolutely pasted for 5 days of the year, and utterly deserted for the other 360 days. No one is going to build 500 chargers or whatever is needed for the bank holiday rush, unless they can charge £500 a go for them.
This is why people are finding unmaintained chargers all over the place. Why would you send a 3 phase qualified sparky (expensive) out every week to fix something that earns you about £30 a day?
rxe said:
This is why people are finding unmaintained chargers all over the place. Why would you send a 3 phase qualified sparky (expensive) out every week to fix something that earns you about £30 a day?
It would seem this is quite a problem. I hadn't realised that charging points would have reliability issues, I thought with few working parts they shouldn't need much maintenance, but this article seems to suggest there's loads out there not working.https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/elec...
eccles said:
It would seem this is quite a problem. I hadn't realised that charging points would have reliability issues, I thought with few working parts they shouldn't need much maintenance, but this article seems to suggest there's loads out there not working.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/elec...
Well they bought a battery car, and haven't even got a charge point at home, doh!!!https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/elec...
Fort Jefferson said:
eccles said:
It would seem this is quite a problem. I hadn't realised that charging points would have reliability issues, I thought with few working parts they shouldn't need much maintenance, but this article seems to suggest there's loads out there not working.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/elec...
Well they bought a battery car, and haven't even got a charge point at home, doh!!!https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/elec...
eccles said:
Fort Jefferson said:
eccles said:
It would seem this is quite a problem. I hadn't realised that charging points would have reliability issues, I thought with few working parts they shouldn't need much maintenance, but this article seems to suggest there's loads out there not working.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/elec...
Well they bought a battery car, and haven't even got a charge point at home, doh!!!https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/elec...
I've had people on the phone enquiring about electric cars, who've not really had a clue, thank me for being so thorough when qualifying them; can that charge at home or elsewhere reliably, what is their usage, are there charge points locally, how are they paid for etc.
Most say I've been the only person who's asked these questions to check that the car is right for them, many say "maybe I need a re-think" or "perhaps electric isn't for me yet".
Edited by HTP99 on Sunday 29th November 10:46
SPLITTER!!
rxe said:
Jazzy Jag said:
2030 August bank holiday, the queue for a charger at Taunton Deane Services
Can’t remember whether I’ve said it on this thread or not, but IMO the problem of bank holiday charging encapsulates the inevitable challenge with “journey charging”.Right now, we all use “journey charging”. Doesn’t matter whether we do 10 miles a day or 500, we all go to the petrol station and spend money. The infrastructure cost is spread over everyone, and revenue comes from everyone.
In an electric world, that model changes. Most people, most of the time, will charge from home. Last year, I visited a petrol station every week - I was doing a whopping commute on top of leisure driving. That would have reduced to about 3 or 4 visits if I had started with a full tank every day - those rare (but very important) times when I need to do big miles.
Journey charging will become a distress purchase. Someone needing it is an edge case, and edge cases need to be prepared for inconvenience and cost, because there is no business case to support them. The putative chargers on the M5 will be absolutely pasted for 5 days of the year, and utterly deserted for the other 360 days. No one is going to build 500 chargers or whatever is needed for the bank holiday rush, unless they can charge £500 a go for them.
This is why people are finding unmaintained chargers all over the place. Why would you send a 3 phase qualified sparky (expensive) out every week to fix something that earns you about £30 a day?
BEV's though... It's not like your AA guy will have a charger in his van, that might be a bit problematic.
techguyone said:
BEV's though... It's not like your AA guy will have a charger in his van, that might be a bit problematic.
Why not? As with most breakdowns, they stick in a couple of litres of fuel to get you 10 miles down the road to the nearest pump - same principal will apply. They will carry a genny in the van, plug it in for 20 mins to give you the range you need - that's technology that you can pick up anywhere today. A bit of googling also suggests development of portable fast chargers. The breakdown services will quickly adapt when there's a demand.Order66 said:
techguyone said:
BEV's though... It's not like your AA guy will have a charger in his van, that might be a bit problematic.
Why not? As with most breakdowns, they stick in a couple of litres of fuel to get you 10 miles down the road to the nearest pump - same principal will apply. They will carry a genny in the van, plug it in for 20 mins to give you the range you need - that's technology that you can pick up anywhere today. A bit of googling also suggests development of portable fast chargers. The breakdown services will quickly adapt when there's a demand.
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