North Korea - how serious should we take them?
Discussion
Globs said:
moustachebandit said:
and helping to maintain the oppression of 23 millions people for their own entertainment and niche holiday bragging rights.
It helps to understand the NK situation if you realise that before the US came along, Korea was a single country who had already worked out their pre-occupation socialist state.It was the US that divided them, brutally put down the socialists in the south and killed 5 million of them in the war.
You also need to realise that part of the 'oppression' is caused by continuous US sanctions and constant threats which have caused them to spend far more on their own defence that they would have needed to.
Criticising NK is really a very sad exercise in 'blame the victim' borne from ignorance or sadism.
Sanctions have been in place for half a century. All it has done is strengthen the dictatorship, starve god knows how many civilians and not change a thing for the better.
The US caused this issue by their unbelievably s
t attitude to the rest of the world in the first place. They have continued to worsen this situation over the years.Seriously why don't they just f
k off out of there. It would be best for everyone. They aren't helping, no-one wants them there, it seems to be the sole reason they keep up this charade is to maintain a massive military presence so close to China.Efbe said:
Globs said:
moustachebandit said:
and helping to maintain the oppression of 23 millions people for their own entertainment and niche holiday bragging rights.
It helps to understand the NK situation if you realise that before the US came along, Korea was a single country who had already worked out their pre-occupation socialist state.It was the US that divided them, brutally put down the socialists in the south and killed 5 million of them in the war.
You also need to realise that part of the 'oppression' is caused by continuous US sanctions and constant threats which have caused them to spend far more on their own defence that they would have needed to.
Criticising NK is really a very sad exercise in 'blame the victim' borne from ignorance or sadism.
Sanctions have been in place for half a century. All it has done is strengthen the dictatorship, starve god knows how many civilians and not change a thing for the better.
The US caused this issue by their unbelievably s
t attitude to the rest of the world in the first place. They have continued to worsen this situation over the years.Seriously why don't they just f
k off out of there. It would be best for everyone. They aren't helping, no-one wants them there, it seems to be the sole reason they keep up this charade is to maintain a massive military presence so close to China.Globs said:
It helps to understand the NK situation if you realise that before the US came along, Korea was a single country who had already worked out their pre-occupation socialist state.
It was the US that divided them, brutally put down the socialists in the south and killed 5 million of them in the war.
You also need to realise that part of the 'oppression' is caused by continuous US sanctions and constant threats which have caused them to spend far more on their own defence that they would have needed to.
Criticising NK is really a very sad exercise in 'blame the victim' borne from ignorance or sadism.
Sorry, but that's not how Korea developed at all.It was the US that divided them, brutally put down the socialists in the south and killed 5 million of them in the war.
You also need to realise that part of the 'oppression' is caused by continuous US sanctions and constant threats which have caused them to spend far more on their own defence that they would have needed to.
Criticising NK is really a very sad exercise in 'blame the victim' borne from ignorance or sadism.
Korea was under Japanese empire rule from 1910 until the end of WW2. Prior to WW2 the north was already in turmoil as guerrilla forces under Kim Il-sung were fighting the occupying Japanese.
In Feb 1945 the Russians agreed to join the allies in the pacific war against the Japanese within 3 months of VE day, they did just this 3 months to the day after VE day by entering Korea from the North forcing the Japanese out. 2 days later the US and Russia agreed to control their parts of Korea, with the USA advancing from the south. They would draw the line where they both stopped at the 38th parallel. This division of Korea was laid out in the terms of the Japanese surrender.
The way it developed from there into a proxy war between the Soviets, Communists in China and the Western forces headed by the UN is very complicated.
It may be worth you having a read of some history because your view on it is seriously flawed.
Efbe said:
Globs said:
moustachebandit said:
and helping to maintain the oppression of 23 millions people for their own entertainment and niche holiday bragging rights.
It helps to understand the NK situation if you realise that before the US came along, Korea was a single country who had already worked out their pre-occupation socialist state.It was the US that divided them, brutally put down the socialists in the south and killed 5 million of them in the war.
You also need to realise that part of the 'oppression' is caused by continuous US sanctions and constant threats which have caused them to spend far more on their own defence that they would have needed to.
Criticising NK is really a very sad exercise in 'blame the victim' borne from ignorance or sadism.
Sanctions have been in place for half a century. All it has done is strengthen the dictatorship, starve god knows how many civilians and not change a thing for the better.
The US caused this issue by their unbelievably s
t attitude to the rest of the world in the first place. They have continued to worsen this situation over the years.Seriously why don't they just f
k off out of there. It would be best for everyone. They aren't helping, no-one wants them there, it seems to be the sole reason they keep up this charade is to maintain a massive military presence so close to China.The South has prospered and is free... the North live/starve under a ruthless totalitarian regime.
The North could be like the South if it wanted (or could even emulate China or Vietnam) it chooses not to.
jsf said:
Sorry, but that's not how Korea developed at all.
Others disagree with you.https://popularresistance.org/who-really-started-t...
JustinRaimondo said:
The key thing I would emphasize more would be after WW II, the Koreans who suffered from Japanese rule for decades were ready for democracy and had formed democratic organizations, People’s Committees, to organize and push for democracy. These committees united and formed the Korean People’s Republic which put forth a progressive political agenda — a 27 point program of employment, minimum wages, land reform.
When the war was over Generals Hodge and MacArthur would not even meet with the Koreans. Instead the powers (US, UK, USSR and China) arbitrarily divided the nation temporarily into two countries as part of ending Japan’s occupation. The US saw Korean calls for democracy as communism in their paranoid fears of the Soviet Union and Red China.
The US began working only with Koreans who had supported the Japanese occupation. This immediately led to revolts throughout Korea that lasted for five years. The US brought Rhee in from the US on MacArthur’s private plane from the US where he had lived for 40 years. Rhee promised to work with those advocating democracy but then assassinated them instead. This included railroad strikes, general strikes, student strikes and riots as well as attacks on police and landlords as well as martial law and mass arrests and slaughters by the government.
One of the the biggest revolts occurred on Jeju Island (which is revolting today against a military base being forced on them). Hundreds of thousands were killed by Rhee on Jeju. In memory of that massacre the Island is now known as the Peace Island. Skirmishes with Korean resistors continued. Their Korean allies from the northern part of their country came south to help. It was this assistance that led to the necessity for a US invasion.
Have you ever asked any Koreans how they view America?When the war was over Generals Hodge and MacArthur would not even meet with the Koreans. Instead the powers (US, UK, USSR and China) arbitrarily divided the nation temporarily into two countries as part of ending Japan’s occupation. The US saw Korean calls for democracy as communism in their paranoid fears of the Soviet Union and Red China.
The US began working only with Koreans who had supported the Japanese occupation. This immediately led to revolts throughout Korea that lasted for five years. The US brought Rhee in from the US on MacArthur’s private plane from the US where he had lived for 40 years. Rhee promised to work with those advocating democracy but then assassinated them instead. This included railroad strikes, general strikes, student strikes and riots as well as attacks on police and landlords as well as martial law and mass arrests and slaughters by the government.
One of the the biggest revolts occurred on Jeju Island (which is revolting today against a military base being forced on them). Hundreds of thousands were killed by Rhee on Jeju. In memory of that massacre the Island is now known as the Peace Island. Skirmishes with Korean resistors continued. Their Korean allies from the northern part of their country came south to help. It was this assistance that led to the necessity for a US invasion.
If not and you get the chance: do.
Globs said:
Have you ever asked any Koreans how they view America?
If not and you get the chance: do.
Here you goIf not and you get the chance: do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufhKWfPSQOw
skyrover said:
Efbe said:
Globs said:
moustachebandit said:
and helping to maintain the oppression of 23 millions people for their own entertainment and niche holiday bragging rights.
It helps to understand the NK situation if you realise that before the US came along, Korea was a single country who had already worked out their pre-occupation socialist state.It was the US that divided them, brutally put down the socialists in the south and killed 5 million of them in the war.
You also need to realise that part of the 'oppression' is caused by continuous US sanctions and constant threats which have caused them to spend far more on their own defence that they would have needed to.
Criticising NK is really a very sad exercise in 'blame the victim' borne from ignorance or sadism.
Sanctions have been in place for half a century. All it has done is strengthen the dictatorship, starve god knows how many civilians and not change a thing for the better.
The US caused this issue by their unbelievably s
t attitude to the rest of the world in the first place. They have continued to worsen this situation over the years.Seriously why don't they just f
k off out of there. It would be best for everyone. They aren't helping, no-one wants them there, it seems to be the sole reason they keep up this charade is to maintain a massive military presence so close to China.The South has prospered and is free... the North live/starve under a ruthless totalitarian regime.
The North could be like the South if it wanted (or could even emulate China or Vietnam) it chooses not to.
The North could take both chips off it's shoulders tonight if it wished. Stop killing and locking up it's own citizens, make peace with the South, stop testing nukes, stop acting the
basically and try being nice for a bit.But they don't. And the reason for that is the survival of the Kim dynasty, not UN sanctions ffs.
Cobnapint said:
skyrover said:
Efbe said:
Globs said:
moustachebandit said:
and helping to maintain the oppression of 23 millions people for their own entertainment and niche holiday bragging rights.
It helps to understand the NK situation if you realise that before the US came along, Korea was a single country who had already worked out their pre-occupation socialist state.It was the US that divided them, brutally put down the socialists in the south and killed 5 million of them in the war.
You also need to realise that part of the 'oppression' is caused by continuous US sanctions and constant threats which have caused them to spend far more on their own defence that they would have needed to.
Criticising NK is really a very sad exercise in 'blame the victim' borne from ignorance or sadism.
Sanctions have been in place for half a century. All it has done is strengthen the dictatorship, starve god knows how many civilians and not change a thing for the better.
The US caused this issue by their unbelievably s
t attitude to the rest of the world in the first place. They have continued to worsen this situation over the years.Seriously why don't they just f
k off out of there. It would be best for everyone. They aren't helping, no-one wants them there, it seems to be the sole reason they keep up this charade is to maintain a massive military presence so close to China.The South has prospered and is free... the North live/starve under a ruthless totalitarian regime.
The North could be like the South if it wanted (or could even emulate China or Vietnam) it chooses not to.
The North could take both chips off it's shoulders tonight if it wished. Stop killing and locking up it's own citizens, make peace with the South, stop testing nukes, stop acting the
basically and try being nice for a bit.But they don't. And the reason for that is the survival of the Kim dynasty, not UN sanctions ffs.
The North it a s
tstorm. It's a crap situation. But the sanctions have been in place for half a century. At what point do you turn around and go, hey this isn't working?And if they did decide to try and open up, how do you think that would go, like Cuba? working well for them isn't it!
The Kim family are obviously trying to maintain control of the North, and doing it very well. There are no uprisings, political movements, or opposition to him of any kind.
So what does anyone think these sanctions will do? What possible positive outcome could they have?
I guess the scenario mapping is what would it look like if the sanctions hadn't been in place for all this time? Multiple Nuclear missiles on Strategic globe-spanning missiles and who knows what else.
Proving a negative is very hard but I personally feel that the sanctions ahve been the bare-minimum of what was needed to help control a government that rules exclusively in it's own interest and at such a personal cost of the people it's there to support
Proving a negative is very hard but I personally feel that the sanctions ahve been the bare-minimum of what was needed to help control a government that rules exclusively in it's own interest and at such a personal cost of the people it's there to support
Efbe said:
So what does anyone think these sanctions will do? What possible positive outcome could they have?
It's a bit like Cuba, barely anyone in Cuba today was even alive when Cuba went independent/sovereign, and yet Trump is bringing back all the sanctions.In NK the US recently passed a law tightening sanctions further,
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missi...
in retaliation for 'missile testing', something that the US does on a regular basis itself.
This may resolve itself though, the US's increasingly random, dangerous, isolating actions around the world - like its attacks of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Syria and Yemen and the demonisation of Iran, Russia and now Qatar ; are symptomatic of not just a crumbling empire but also of a major looming economic crisis as their war investments return nothing, after being checkmated in Syria.
It was telling that for the first time the US vassal states of Germany (and Austria) basically said 'no' (or possibly Nein!) to the latest unfounded sanctions against Russia (slipped into the new round of unfounded sanctions against ISIS enemy #1: Iran):
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/06/21/...
as the US aims to replace Russian energy for US energy in Europe, hence also cutting big German firms out of the money. This would be to try and weaken Russia and to boost US income of course, but the US actions in trying to achieve this has so far resulted in a debt/GDP ratio of around 100% and growing for the US and 15% and shrinking for Russia, as Russia turns eastward toward more reliable, safer partners who are not surrounding them with nuclear ready missiles.
With this newly expressed German attitude it will be interesting to see if US troops are built up there and a few of Soros's NGOs move in so that some decent protests against Merkel's 'pro Russian' policies can start..
http://gulagbound.com/12652/top-5-revolutions-back...
Mannginger said:
I guess the scenario mapping is what would it look like if the sanctions hadn't been in place for all this time? Multiple Nuclear missiles on Strategic globe-spanning missiles and who knows what else.
Proving a negative is very hard but I personally feel that the sanctions ahve been the bare-minimum of what was needed to help control a government that rules exclusively in it's own interest and at such a personal cost of the people it's there to support
NK developed nuclear missiles due to the threat (to the Kim family) of being wiped out by the US. It started as their bargaining chip, the only one they could possibly have.Proving a negative is very hard but I personally feel that the sanctions ahve been the bare-minimum of what was needed to help control a government that rules exclusively in it's own interest and at such a personal cost of the people it's there to support
Have any other countries decided to get "Multiple Nuclear missiles on Strategic globe-spanning missiles", as there is no other country in the world with the same sanctions against them?
Again, what do you expect sanctions to do?
Globs said:
It was telling that for the first time the US vassal states of Germany (and Austria) basically said 'no' (or possibly Nein!) to the latest unfounded sanctions against Russia (slipped into the new round of unfounded sanctions against ISIS enemy #1: Iran):
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/06/21/...
Indeed. https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/06/21/...
Efbe said:
Globs said:
moustachebandit said:
and helping to maintain the oppression of 23 millions people for their own entertainment and niche holiday bragging rights.
It helps to understand the NK situation if you realise that before the US came along, Korea was a single country who had already worked out their pre-occupation socialist state.It was the US that divided them, brutally put down the socialists in the south and killed 5 million of them in the war.
You also need to realise that part of the 'oppression' is caused by continuous US sanctions and constant threats which have caused them to spend far more on their own defence that they would have needed to.
Criticising NK is really a very sad exercise in 'blame the victim' borne from ignorance or sadism.
Sanctions have been in place for half a century. All it has done is strengthen the dictatorship, starve god knows how many civilians and not change a thing for the better.
The US caused this issue by their unbelievably s
t attitude to the rest of the world in the first place. They have continued to worsen this situation over the years.Seriously why don't they just f
k off out of there. It would be best for everyone. They aren't helping, no-one wants them there, it seems to be the sole reason they keep up this charade is to maintain a massive military presence so close to China.1) They are there to essentially cripple a hostile dictatorship and prevent them from destabilising the whole region. People are worrying about NK now but if sanctions weren't in place its safe to assume NK would be in a much stronger situation militarily and may have already ICBM or have attempted to attack / seize SK and thrown the whole region into war.
2) They are an attempt to make countries comply, eventually bringing them into the fold without using military means. NK is a unique case as they have limped on for so long (Due to the Kim stranglehold on the country), but the cost to their countries development has been huge.
Sanctions didn't result in the starvation on the NK people - that came about due to piss poor management of NK agriculture, stock piling of food for the military and stupid vanity projects which essentially ended up turning key farming land into a dust bowl. The UN sent millions in food aid to NK, and still does, and the reports are that literally none of this actually reaches the people. It just gets stock piled and used to feed the army (and in a lot of cases, even they dont see the food).
The country is on its arse and its busy spending money firing rockets into space and trying to make nuclear weapons, doesn't seem like the most stable way to manage a country.
I know beating on Americas foreign policy is what all the cool kids do whilst smoking weed and reading conspiracy websites, and whilst they are by no means perfect make no mistake the architects of this colossal f
k up is NK. Contrary to what you think SK & Japan are glad America is there because it helps the balance of power and has helped keep the Genie in the bottle.
I am sure that everyone in the region would prefer it if NK just chilled their s
t and opened up to the rest of the world. Stopped with the stupidity and started fostering relations with its neighbours. Efbe said:
Sanctions have been in place for half a century. All it has done is strengthen the dictatorship, starve god knows how many civilians and not change a thing for the better.
You think sanctions have strengthened the dictatorship.?I think not. The regime has ruled with an iron fist from the word go, They don't need a few piddling little UN sanctions to bolster things up.
Stuff is pouring in over the border from China anyway, sanctions against NK are meaningless.
moustachebandit said:
Efbe said:
Globs said:
moustachebandit said:
and helping to maintain the oppression of 23 millions people for their own entertainment and niche holiday bragging rights.
It helps to understand the NK situation if you realise that before the US came along, Korea was a single country who had already worked out their pre-occupation socialist state.It was the US that divided them, brutally put down the socialists in the south and killed 5 million of them in the war.
You also need to realise that part of the 'oppression' is caused by continuous US sanctions and constant threats which have caused them to spend far more on their own defence that they would have needed to.
Criticising NK is really a very sad exercise in 'blame the victim' borne from ignorance or sadism.
Sanctions have been in place for half a century. All it has done is strengthen the dictatorship, starve god knows how many civilians and not change a thing for the better.
The US caused this issue by their unbelievably s
t attitude to the rest of the world in the first place. They have continued to worsen this situation over the years.Seriously why don't they just f
k off out of there. It would be best for everyone. They aren't helping, no-one wants them there, it seems to be the sole reason they keep up this charade is to maintain a massive military presence so close to China.1) They are there to essentially cripple a hostile dictatorship and prevent them from destabilising the whole region. People are worrying about NK now but if sanctions weren't in place its safe to assume NK would be in a much stronger situation militarily and may have already ICBM or have attempted to attack / seize SK and thrown the whole region into war.
2) They are an attempt to make countries comply, eventually bringing them into the fold without using military means. NK is a unique case as they have limped on for so long (Due to the Kim stranglehold on the country), but the cost to their countries development has been huge.
Sanctions didn't result in the starvation on the NK people - that came about due to piss poor management of NK agriculture, stock piling of food for the military and stupid vanity projects which essentially ended up turning key farming land into a dust bowl. The UN sent millions in food aid to NK, and still does, and the reports are that literally none of this actually reaches the people. It just gets stock piled and used to feed the army (and in a lot of cases, even they dont see the food).
The country is on its arse and its busy spending money firing rockets into space and trying to make nuclear weapons, doesn't seem like the most stable way to manage a country.
I know beating on Americas foreign policy is what all the cool kids do whilst smoking weed and reading conspiracy websites, and whilst they are by no means perfect make no mistake the architects of this colossal f
k up is NK. Contrary to what you think SK & Japan are glad America is there because it helps the balance of power and has helped keep the Genie in the bottle.
I am sure that everyone in the region would prefer it if NK just chilled their s
t and opened up to the rest of the world. Stopped with the stupidity and started fostering relations with its neighbours. but it isn't working. sanctions and threats are not and have not worked.
Japan and SK have very different opinions on NK. As I have described previously, SK does not like the US presence by and large.
What need to happen is a change in the way the the west acts towards NK. The only way the deadlock can be broken is by a middle class being created in NK and a slow political change that this will bring. Right now, the working class stands behind the leadership as this is all they know.
China is starting to do this with NK now. US(SK) is not. It would speed things up a huge amount if they did. NK would also do a lot better to be aligned with SK than to China. The people of both NK and SK would prefer this too, even if the leadership wouldn't.
Chinese cars/phones/computers etc are starting to become quite common place in PY, and will start spreading out to the countryside in time.
Military threats/posturing does f
k all useful as is blatantly obvious in international relations. Trade/economics are what drives change.superkartracer said:
It's hard for the layman to fully understand the sheer firepower the USA have , i was reading that just 10 b2 spirit bombers could wipe out all of NK's nuclear and missile infrastructure , they could then send in a barrage of 1000+ cruise to mop-up , imagine a full-scale US attack! .
How do they get all that ordnance onto that little plane..Edited by superkartracer on Wednesday 21st June 09:25
Efbe said:
ok thats well and good.
but it isn't working. sanctions and threats are not and have not worked.
Japan and SK have very different opinions on NK. As I have described previously, SK does not like the US presence by and large.
What need to happen is a change in the way the the west acts towards NK. The only way the deadlock can be broken is by a middle class being created in NK and a slow political change that this will bring. Right now, the working class stands behind the leadership as this is all they know.
China is starting to do this with NK now. US(SK) is not. It would speed things up a huge amount if they did. NK would also do a lot better to be aligned with SK than to China. The people of both NK and SK would prefer this too, even if the leadership wouldn't.
Chinese cars/phones/computers etc are starting to become quite common place in PY, and will start spreading out to the countryside in time.
Military threats/posturing does fk all useful as is blatantly obvious in international relations. Trade/economics are what drives change.
Who says it isn't working? NK hasn't attacked anyone yet and probably never will. The posturing from NK shows that the sanctions have an effect, the only thing NK can do is throw their toys out of the pram and hope someone will give them something to shut them up. If the west relaxed their position on NK it would let the genie out of the bottle. but it isn't working. sanctions and threats are not and have not worked.
Japan and SK have very different opinions on NK. As I have described previously, SK does not like the US presence by and large.
What need to happen is a change in the way the the west acts towards NK. The only way the deadlock can be broken is by a middle class being created in NK and a slow political change that this will bring. Right now, the working class stands behind the leadership as this is all they know.
China is starting to do this with NK now. US(SK) is not. It would speed things up a huge amount if they did. NK would also do a lot better to be aligned with SK than to China. The people of both NK and SK would prefer this too, even if the leadership wouldn't.
Chinese cars/phones/computers etc are starting to become quite common place in PY, and will start spreading out to the countryside in time.
Military threats/posturing does f
k all useful as is blatantly obvious in international relations. Trade/economics are what drives change.FYI there is already a middle class in NK, living in Pyongyang they seem very happy with the current situation so its highly unlikely they will ever affect change, even if they could as there is no democracy. Enhanced trade / economics wont help bring change as its a socialist state, so even if NK's economy exploded there would still be the destitute masses scraping by whilst all that new money gets plowed into more weaponry.
From what I have read from various news sources. China is exceptionally cool towards NK. They are not hand in glove.
As for military posturing its NK. They are the ones who are constantly threatening America, South Korea & Japan. Everyone else is doing the sensible thing and ensure they can defend their own if the s
t hits the fan. If they didn't do this they would expose themselves to potential attack. There have been numerous initiatives by SK to improve relationships between the 2 countries and in most instances NK has thrown it back in their face. At the end of the day you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink!
pinchmeimdreamin said:
superkartracer said:
It's hard for the layman to fully understand the sheer firepower the USA have , i was reading that just 10 b2 spirit bombers could wipe out all of NK's nuclear and missile infrastructure , they could then send in a barrage of 1000+ cruise to mop-up , imagine a full-scale US attack! .
How do they get all that ordnance onto that little plane..Edited by superkartracer on Wednesday 21st June 09:25
To paraphrase Jaws "we're going to need a bigger 'plane!"
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