Natural History Museum...Why is it free?
Discussion
Sam_68 said:
Halb said:
Everyone benefits equally from free museums, because their free, the ultimate fairness.
Only if you have equal opportunity (and inclination) to use them... which we don't.And they're not free - every taxpayer (though not every individual) has to contribute toward their cost. And since we pay different amounts of tax according to our income, even those of us who do contribute toward their cost do not do so equally.
They are free as our roads/NHS/libraries are 'free'. Paid for out of the total pool. Whether someone pays higher or lower tax is irrelevant and more suited for a discussion on tax. I would rather contribute a penny to the 50 odd millions of a museum than a pound to the 34 odd billions of a nuclear deterrent submarine, but that's tax for you.
Ok lets be clear, we are not all equal and we should not be helping those that will not help themselves.
So to attack another poster on here because you think we should all be equal is as naive as thinking that if you can pay for it you should.
The capitalist system, does not work on purely helping yourself and I'm alright Jack, despite what Sam might think. It works of giving the opportunity for all to make the most of themselves.
This is what he seems to be missing and also the people that think that we should be equal.
So to attack another poster on here because you think we should all be equal is as naive as thinking that if you can pay for it you should.
The capitalist system, does not work on purely helping yourself and I'm alright Jack, despite what Sam might think. It works of giving the opportunity for all to make the most of themselves.
This is what he seems to be missing and also the people that think that we should be equal.
Halb said:
We all have equal opportunity to use them, Museums do not discriminate.
No we don't. I work full time and live in rural Gloucestershire. My opportunities to use the major national museums (which are concentrated in London) are much reduced compared to, say, someone who doesn't who lives in a housing benefit supported flat in London.Mikeyboy said:
Ok lets be clear, we are not all equal and we should not be helping those that will not help themselves.
Close, but no cigar. I personally think that we should be providing sufficient support to ensure that even those who will not help themselves at least don't starve or freeze to death, have access to sufficient educational resources to be literate and numerate, and access to democracy in the form of the vote and legal support if they need it.
Beyond that,if the government chooses to further improve their miserable, feckless lives, it should find a way of doing it that doesn't involve taking well over half my income from me in tax.
Mikeyboy said:
The capitalist system, does not work on purely helping yourself and I'm alright Jack, despite what Sam might think. It works of giving the opportunity for all to make the most of themselves.
If you read again what I said, you'll find that I never suggested that I think any such thing.But thanks for your support...
I'm interested, though, that there has been no proper response to my question of why the 'free access' lobby considers arts like the national opera and theatre, or sports, to be substantially different.
The health and fitness benefits of free access to local authority sports centres would surely be massively more beneficial to the economy than free access to museums, and why is classical music and opera any less important than sculpture and paintings.
...yet I don't hear anyone b
hing about the 'crucial' negative impact that charging entry to these services is having on the Nation's wellbeing?And yes, I read Halb's comment on how opera and theatre are 'different' because they have timed performances, but that doesn't prevent the limited audience capacities of the National theatres and opera being allocated free-of-charge on a first come, first served basis, perhaps with preference for schools and students?
Sam_68 said:
Halb said:
We all have equal opportunity to use them, Museums do not discriminate.
No we don't. I work full time and live in rural Gloucestershire. My opportunities to use the major national museums (which are concentrated in London) are much reduced compared to, say, someone who doesn't who lives in a housing benefit supported flat in London.Sam_68 said:
I'm interested, though, that there has been no proper response to my question of why the 'free access' lobby considers arts like the national opera and theatre, or sports, to be substantially different.
I gave one.Sam_68 said:
The health and fitness benefits of free access to local authority sports centres would surely be massively more beneficial to the economy than free access to museums, and why is classical music and opera any less important than sculpture and paintings.
...yet I don't hear anyone bhing about the 'crucial' negative impact that charging entry to these services is having on the Nation's wellbeing?
My local leisure charges, something small like a pound for use or something. There are several of it's kind in my nearest town. The aspects of physical activity are different; wear and tear, insurance, training. There are far more things to consider for a leisure centre, there are not the same, apples and oranges and even so, the charge is very cheap....yet I don't hear anyone b
hing about the 'crucial' negative impact that charging entry to these services is having on the Nation's wellbeing?Sam_68 said:
And yes, I read Halb's comment on how opera and theatre are 'different' because they have timed performances, but that doesn't prevent the limited audience capacities of the National theatres and opera being allocated free-of-charge on a first come, first served basis, perhaps with preference for schools and students?
Ahh, only just saw this!! Performing arts have extra costs as well though, the performers plus set plus props/costume. I can imagine the costs for opera are sky high. How much further could you go with that? Free private performances one on one with Michael Gambon? Edited by Halb on Thursday 23 February 14:57
Eric Mc said:
Don't bother debating.
Sam68 has his own views on these matters and no matter how many replies people make he will not see an answer that he thinks satisfies his "questions".
This thread is well past its "Use By Date". Maybe it should be put in a Thread Museum (a free one, naturally).
If we charged for access to Sam's posts d'you think he'd appreciate that? Sam68 has his own views on these matters and no matter how many replies people make he will not see an answer that he thinks satisfies his "questions".
This thread is well past its "Use By Date". Maybe it should be put in a Thread Museum (a free one, naturally).
I keep thinking of these lyrics from Joni Mitchell's "Big Yellow Taxi" -
"They took all the trees and put 'em in a tree museum
And they charged all the people a dollar and a half just to see 'em
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got til it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot"
Was she thinking of people like Sam68, I wonder?
"They took all the trees and put 'em in a tree museum
And they charged all the people a dollar and a half just to see 'em
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got til it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot"
Was she thinking of people like Sam68, I wonder?
Eric Mc said:
I keep thinking of these lyrics from Joni Mitchell's "Big Yellow Taxi" -
"They took all the trees and put 'em in a tree museum
And they charged all the people a dollar and a half just to see 'em
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got til it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot"
Was she thinking of people like Sam68, I wonder?
Eric, hes fine. He has money, he can pay to see paradise and anyone who cannot has simply not been working hard enough for that privilege. "They took all the trees and put 'em in a tree museum
And they charged all the people a dollar and a half just to see 'em
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got til it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot"
Was she thinking of people like Sam68, I wonder?
Derek Smith said:
Eric Mc said:
Don't bother debating.
Sam68 has his own views on these matters and no matter how many replies people make he will not see an answer that he thinks satisfies his "questions".
This thread is well past its "Use By Date". Maybe it should be put in a Thread Museum (a free one, naturally).
If we charged for access to Sam's posts d'you think he'd appreciate that? Sam68 has his own views on these matters and no matter how many replies people make he will not see an answer that he thinks satisfies his "questions".
This thread is well past its "Use By Date". Maybe it should be put in a Thread Museum (a free one, naturally).
RVVUNM said:
I was there on Monday and have to say it was OK. They should however spend a bit of the £49 million or whatever the amount is on dusting the animal section. The blue whale had an inch of dust all over his back.
Its been hanging there 35 years at least so an inch isn't too bad. I reckon no-ones got around to getting a ladder out because of all those proles that wander around for free. RVVUNM said:
I was there on Monday and have to say it was OK. They should however spend a bit of the £49 million or whatever the amount is on dusting the animal section. The blue whale had an inch of dust all over his back.
My point exactly, that whale's been there for most of eternity and the stuffed animals in the room leading up to it have been sat there for as long... It's looking sad and neglected.Sam_68 said:
Halb said:
We all have equal opportunity to use them, Museums do not discriminate.
No we don't. I work full time and live in rural Gloucestershire. My opportunities to use the major national museums (which are concentrated in London) are much reduced compared to, say, someone who doesn't who lives in a housing benefit supported flat in London.You know what is really ironic, given what you've been saying on this thread all along, is that London is the biggest net contributor of tax revenue in the UK. In fact it probably helps subsidise some of the rural services in Gloucestershire.
Halb said:
Museums tend to congregate in large cities, not rural areas.
Yes, and I don't dispute the sense in this... I'm merely pointing out the flaws in your 'everybody has equal access' theory: people don't have equal access, for whatever reason, and so it is much fairer to bias the costs toward the people who actually use museums most, by charging a small fee, is all I'm saying.Sam_68 said:
I'm interested, though, that there has been no proper response to my question of why the 'free access' lobby considers arts like the national opera and theatre, or sports, to be substantially different.
Halb said:
My local leisure charges, something small like a pound for use or something.
My point exactly. And I assume you have no particular problem with having to pay this small fee to use it?I have never suggested on this thread that all funding should come from entrance fees, or that taxpayer funding should be removed completely. Just that a proportion of the costs could be recovered from those who actually use museums(and thereby reduce the tax burden slightly) by charging a modest entrance fee.
Apparently this makes me a rabid, sociopathic lunatic, bent on destroying the fabric of the nation?
Halb said:
Performing arts have extra costs as well though, the performers plus set plus props/costume. I can imagine the costs for opera are sky high. How much further could you go with that? Free private performances one on one with Michael Gambon?
But there's only one National Shakespeare Theatre, and only one National Opera and the costs of each, even after paying for performers, etc., are fairly small compared to those for running a major museum likle the NHM.Surely it's just as culturally and educationally important (if not more so?) to allow everyone the opportunity to see a play by our greatest national playwright, performed properly live on stage once in a lifetime, than to allow free access to view cabinet after cabinet of guns, swords and armour at the Royal Armouries?
But even if not, you see the inconsistencies in the 'free admission' argument?
oyster said:
The real truth I'd suspected for some time. You're just envious!
No, I spent 4 years of my life living and working in London (well, living in Guildford, working around London), and I'm not. Really, REALLY I'm not. In fact you might just about convince me that free museums are necessary as some sort of compensation for having to live in that miserable, filthy, unfriendly antheap.
...but then we all have a choice.
Ok let's settle this for Sam.........
If you live in London you can have one visit per Museum per year free. £5 per visit after that.
If you're on the dole you can have free "Museum Watch" internet access at the Job Centre of your choice with the proviso you apply for 2 jobs prior.
If Your name is Sam and you pay +50% Tax you get free Opera and a Box at Old Trafford.
Sorted? Everybody happy? Ta.
And for everybody else I will personally dust the whale.
If you live in London you can have one visit per Museum per year free. £5 per visit after that.
If you're on the dole you can have free "Museum Watch" internet access at the Job Centre of your choice with the proviso you apply for 2 jobs prior.
If Your name is Sam and you pay +50% Tax you get free Opera and a Box at Old Trafford.
Sorted? Everybody happy? Ta.
And for everybody else I will personally dust the whale.
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