This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)
Discussion
gofasterrosssco said:
jimmybobby said:
Actually as an aside as mentioned by others on here and touched on in Farages speech much of the money given to Greece went to France and German based companies based on the terms of the debts arrangements and due to the way the EU is actually set up to favour them. It did not go to helping Greece get back on its feet it went to lining the pockets of a few very elite and exceptionally wealthy people outside of Greece.
Can you therefore blame Greece for wanting better terms and arrangements? So for example lend them the money and allow them to spend it within Greece with companies within Greece creating jobs and putting the money into Greece's economy rather than into foreign pockets.
Seems a very simplistic approach by saying any bail out cash should just have went to Greek companies.. Companies run by the Greek elite who are potentially more corrupt than their euro equivalents? Were there Greek companies qualified for the work that had to be done, and the best / most efficient to do it? How do you know that most of the money didn't go to Greek workers on a local level?Can you therefore blame Greece for wanting better terms and arrangements? So for example lend them the money and allow them to spend it within Greece with companies within Greece creating jobs and putting the money into Greece's economy rather than into foreign pockets.
Maybe the loans were set up for French / German companies, precisely because they actually use a non-corrupt accounting structure, and it could be seen exactly where it was going..
You just sound like an A-typical anti-austerity bloke who complains all money go to the rich / bankers / wealthy etc.
So for example vinci and the bridge they built discussed earlier. While we dont know the staffing and supplier make up involved I suspect a lot of the money from the project went to Vinci and their own staff brought in to run the project which means the money will have been taken out of Greece economy.
I don't think it unfair when a country is struggling to allow them to use national companies and staff to support their industry as it keeps the money in the country.
Pan Pan Pan said:
Axionknight said:
Yeah! But Tsipras did not `look' all that impressed with what was being said, Perhaps he is just a blinding poker player??? 
To be fair there seemed to be quite a few others there who did not look all that impressed by Nigel Farages words, but as the saying goes, `sometimes the truth really hurts'
jimmybobby said:
gofasterrosssco said:
jimmybobby said:
Actually as an aside as mentioned by others on here and touched on in Farages speech much of the money given to Greece went to France and German based companies based on the terms of the debts arrangements and due to the way the EU is actually set up to favour them. It did not go to helping Greece get back on its feet it went to lining the pockets of a few very elite and exceptionally wealthy people outside of Greece.
Can you therefore blame Greece for wanting better terms and arrangements? So for example lend them the money and allow them to spend it within Greece with companies within Greece creating jobs and putting the money into Greece's economy rather than into foreign pockets.
Seems a very simplistic approach by saying any bail out cash should just have went to Greek companies.. Companies run by the Greek elite who are potentially more corrupt than their euro equivalents? Were there Greek companies qualified for the work that had to be done, and the best / most efficient to do it? How do you know that most of the money didn't go to Greek workers on a local level?Can you therefore blame Greece for wanting better terms and arrangements? So for example lend them the money and allow them to spend it within Greece with companies within Greece creating jobs and putting the money into Greece's economy rather than into foreign pockets.
Maybe the loans were set up for French / German companies, precisely because they actually use a non-corrupt accounting structure, and it could be seen exactly where it was going..
You just sound like an A-typical anti-austerity bloke who complains all money go to the rich / bankers / wealthy etc.
So for example vinci and the bridge they built discussed earlier. While we dont know the staffing and supplier make up involved I suspect a lot of the money from the project went to Vinci and their own staff brought in to run the project which means the money will have been taken out of Greece economy.
I don't think it unfair when a country is struggling to allow them to use national companies and staff to support their industry as it keeps the money in the country.
busses!) Funny that? It could also be true that certain large edifices where built by foreign countries organisations, because the indigenous ones where incapable of constructing them to the correct standards, on time, and within budget.
warp9 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Axionknight said:
Yeah! But Tsipras did not `look' all that impressed with what was being said, Perhaps he is just a blinding poker player??? To be fair there seemed to be quite a few others there who did not look all that impressed by Nigel Farages words, but as the saying goes, `sometimes the truth really hurts'
Pan Pan Pan said:
They were given huge sums of unearned (by them) money in the forlorn hope they would use it to drag their corrupt, basket case, non productive backward economy into the 21st century, but THEY chose not to do this. (They did however manage to buy huge numbers of Mercedes and Audi cars (and Daimler
busses!) Funny that? It could also be true that certain large edifices where built by foreign countries organisations, because the indigenous ones where incapable of constructing them to the correct standards, on time, and within budget.
Pan nobody is arguing Greece is a corrupt basket case not even me. What i am saying is that they bailouts they have been given were a Peter Robs Paul situation. Most of the money they received in bailouts mostly went to servicing their debt mountain rather than being used to try stabilise their economy.busses!) Funny that? It could also be true that certain large edifices where built by foreign countries organisations, because the indigenous ones where incapable of constructing them to the correct standards, on time, and within budget.
Yes they could have spent the money that didnt go towards debt servicement better but then again that's due to the fact they have always run the country abysmally. I get the impression Tsipras is not like most of the governments of old and wants to slowly change things and cut down on corruption etc whilst at the same time trying to avoid the constant riots and government changes which helps no one.
They were then at the same time told to make major cuts which pushed up unemployment and caused many businesses to fold which in turn caused further unemployment etc.
jimmybobby said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
They were given huge sums of unearned (by them) money in the forlorn hope they would use it to drag their corrupt, basket case, non productive backward economy into the 21st century, but THEY chose not to do this. (They did however manage to buy huge numbers of Mercedes and Audi cars (and Daimler
busses!) Funny that? It could also be true that certain large edifices where built by foreign countries organisations, because the indigenous ones where incapable of constructing them to the correct standards, on time, and within budget.
Pan nobody is arguing Greece is a corrupt basket case not even me. What i am saying is that they bailouts they have been given were a Peter Robs Paul situation. Most of the money they received in bailouts mostly went to servicing their debt mountain rather than being used to try stabilise their economy.busses!) Funny that? It could also be true that certain large edifices where built by foreign countries organisations, because the indigenous ones where incapable of constructing them to the correct standards, on time, and within budget.
Yes they could have spent the money that didnt go towards debt servicement better but then again that's due to the fact they have always run the country abysmally. I get the impression Tsipras is not like most of the governments of old and wants to slowly change things and cut down on corruption etc whilst at the same time trying to avoid the constant riots and government changes which helps no one.
They were then at the same time told to make major cuts which pushed up unemployment and caused many businesses to fold which in turn caused further unemployment etc.
All Greece can do now is leave the Eurozone, and perhaps even the EU, and get to restructuring and re building their economy in a sustainable way `themselves'
From many other member states viewpoints they have already had all the help they are going to get, or deserved to ever get, but they chose to blow it.
If I was another EU member state I would be seriously asking why, if a known corrupt, basket case economy such as Greece, can receive so much financial aid, for so long, why can`t my country have it too?
The real answer is that Greece should never have asked to be admitted (and been admitted) or received the aid in the first place.
Pan Pan Pan said:
If I was another EU member state I would be seriously asking why, if a known corrupt, basket case economy such as Greece, can receive so much financial aid, for so long, why can`t my country have it too?
Because a lot of the money was being f
king washed back through via the likes of Vinci, Siemens, etc, etc...on proviso if you likeAnd on your previous point...
Pan Pan Pan said:
Funny that? It could also be true that certain large edifices where built by foreign countries organisations, because the indigenous ones where incapable of constructing them to the correct standards, on time, and within budget.
Not much different to other countries....UK perhaps?... 9mm said:
I haven't read the entire thread so someone may have made this point.
Didn't we write off African debt a few years back on the bases of it being the humanitarian thing to do and them being unable to repay it.
Why not do the same for a European neighbour?
Because once they know you can get €300bn in debt and it'll just be written off when the number gets too big, they'll do it over and over again.Didn't we write off African debt a few years back on the bases of it being the humanitarian thing to do and them being unable to repay it.
Why not do the same for a European neighbour?
It undermines the system, much like quantitative easing. These safety nets just encourage people to take bigger risks.
NailedOn said:
Rumour Control update...........
There will be a deal.
Face saving kick the can down the road into the long grass.
That sort of deal.
By close of play Sunday.
I'm conflicted.There will be a deal.
Face saving kick the can down the road into the long grass.
That sort of deal.
By close of play Sunday.
In a way, this would certainly reduce the short-term pain and chaos, but in another way it would do nothing to address the issues caused by sharing the Euro with stronger economies.
Hopefully, with regard to tax and corruption reform - with Tsipras' admission that these have been key problems in Greece - whichever way the axe falls, there will be a change in the mentality of the nation.
Digga said:
I'm conflicted.
In a way, this would certainly reduce the short-term pain and chaos, but in another way it would do nothing to address the issues caused by sharing the Euro with stronger economies.
Hopefully, with regard to tax and corruption reform - with Tsipras' admission that these have been key problems in Greece - whichever way the axe falls, there will be a change in the mentality of the nation.
The Greeks want to stay in the EU and want to keep the euro, what they don't want to do is reform, but unfortunately for them economic and social reform is the key to future success.In a way, this would certainly reduce the short-term pain and chaos, but in another way it would do nothing to address the issues caused by sharing the Euro with stronger economies.
Hopefully, with regard to tax and corruption reform - with Tsipras' admission that these have been key problems in Greece - whichever way the axe falls, there will be a change in the mentality of the nation.
RYH64E said:
The Greeks want to stay in the EU and want to keep the euro, what they don't want to do is reform, but unfortunately for them economic and social reform is the key to future success.
you make it ould like they speak with one voice?Lot of the Greeks interviewed on TV over the last few days have been the ones pushing for the government to get serious with collecting taxes etc.
Scuffers said:
RYH64E said:
The Greeks want to stay in the EU and want to keep the euro, what they don't want to do is reform, but unfortunately for them economic and social reform is the key to future success.
you make it ould like they speak with one voice?Lot of the Greeks interviewed on TV over the last few days have been the ones pushing for the government to get serious with collecting taxes etc.
proséxte, proséxte, énas lýkos érchetai ! springs to mind....
Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 9th July 09:34
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