Scots to bring in minimum price booze
Discussion
Evercross said:
Driver101 said:
I don't think the link between minimum pricing and drug deaths is directly related.
I don't think you can assert that with any certainty. The extreme end of the alcohol consumption scale is addiction and addicts will turn to the cheapest, most easily available method they can to get whatever they need.Price alcohol above something else that will satisfy them and the result is obvious. If the stuff they turn to carries a greater risk of death because of impurity the result is even more obvious.
This is not about rational decisions after all.
Since the relaxation or the lack of police , begging in the streets seems to have had the effect of a better class of booze for these unfortunate people.
Edited by crankedup on Sunday 29th September 16:23
Driver101 said:
Why is the conclusion false? If you're going to call something false you could at least offer evidence why it is false.
I did. The data set is incomplete because the research said sale of alcohol was down but at the same time admits it wasn't counting sales in pubs, plus it didn't take into account a possible increase in the personal import of alcohol purchased outside Scotland but consumed in Scotland.You either don't understand the significance of those variables or you are an SNP apologist and will ignore or play-down critical factors that undermine your argument.
Driver101 said:
You're the man that says the links to drug deaths is directly linked to the price of alcohol.
For the second time now I didn't say that, and my explanation of your inexplicable misinterpretation of what I did say is still a couple of pages back so you can go read it again and save me retyping it.crankedup said:
It was not so many years ago that meths was the choice of consumption for those living on the streets.....
...and before that it was milk and hairspray, which kind of proves the point that addicts will take their hit whichever way they can get it at the cheapest rate going. Price out one option and others become more attractive.Edited by Evercross on Sunday 29th September 16:10
Evercross said:
Driver101 said:
Why is the conclusion false? If you're going to call something false you could at least offer evidence why it is false.
I did. The data set is incomplete because the research said sale of alcohol was down but at the same time admits it wasn't counting sales in pubs, plus it didn't take into account a possible increase in the personal import of alcohol purchased outside Scotland but consumed in Scotland.You either don't understand the significance of those variables or you are an SNP apologist and will ignore or play-down critical factors that undermine your argument.
Driver101 said:
You're the man that says the links to drug deaths is directly linked to the price of alcohol.
For the second time now I didn't say that, and my explanation of your inexplicable misinterpretation of what I did say is still a couple of pages back so you can go read it again and save me retyping it.crankedup said:
It was not so many years ago that meths was the choice of consumption for those living on the streets.....
...and before that it was milk and hairspray, which kind of proves the point that addicts will take their hit whichever way they can get it at the cheapest rate going. Price out one option and others become more attractive.Edited by Evercross on Sunday 29th September 16:10
and publicised many times before the dangers of alcohol. Personally I used to enjoy ale with a whiskey chaser, within less than a year that chaser was getting to be the main tipple. I knocked it on the head and so pleased I did whilst I could without to much pain.
I hadn’t heard of the milk & hairspray route, shocking state. to end up in.
Evercross said:
Driver101 said:
Why is the conclusion false? If you're going to call something false you could at least offer evidence why it is false.
I did. The data set is incomplete because the research said sale of alcohol was down but at the same time admits it wasn't counting sales in pubs, plus it didn't take into account a possible increase in the personal import of alcohol purchased outside Scotland but consumed in Scotland.You either don't understand the significance of those variables or you are an SNP apologist and will ignore or play-down critical factors that undermine your argument.
Driver101 said:
You're the man that says the links to drug deaths is directly linked to the price of alcohol.
or the second time now I didn't say that, and my explanation of your inexplicable misinterpretation of what I did say is still a couple of pages back so you can go read it again and save me retyping it.crankedup said:
It was not so many years ago that meths was the choice of consumption for those living on the streets.....
...and before that it was milk and hairspray, which kind of proves the point that addicts will take their hit whichever way they can get it at the cheapest rate going. Price out one option and others become more attractive.Edited by Evercross on Sunday 29th September 16:10
Evercross said:
As someone has already mentioned, the recently announced drug-death stats already point to the potential knock-on effects.
That post isn't suggesting that MUP has any link to drug deaths? Edited by Evercross on Thursday 26th September 11:55
The BMJ report did take into account over border sales.
said:
Conclusion and policy implications
Our study is an empirical assessment of the immediate impact of MUP on the price and purchases of off-trade alcohol in Scotland. Our analyses indicate that MUP is an effective policy option to reduce alcohol purchases, particularly affecting higher purchasers, and with no evidence of a significant differential negative impact on expenditure by lower income groups. Our data supports the introduction of MUP as an effective policy option in other jurisdictions.
What is already known on this topic
Scotland introduced a minimum price of 50p per UK unit (6.25p per gram) for the sale of alcohol in May 2018
The only empirical evidence for the impact of minimum prices of alcohol sales so far come from Canadian provinces, which showed that increases in existing minimum prices were associated with reduced alcohol related harm
The present controlled study analyses the impact of the introduction of a minimum price per gram of alcohol sold in Scotland, based on a large household panel dataset and using objective data obtained from bar codes of sold products
What this study adds
This study compared data from Scottish households with those from English households to conduct a controlled interrupted time series analysis, and used data from households in northern England to control for potential cross border purchasing effects
Minimum unit pricing appeared to be effective at reducing alcohol purchases and, by inference, consumption in Scotland
Effects were greatest in households who purchased the most alcohol, with no evidence of a differential negative impact on expenditure by lower income groups
Our study is an empirical assessment of the immediate impact of MUP on the price and purchases of off-trade alcohol in Scotland. Our analyses indicate that MUP is an effective policy option to reduce alcohol purchases, particularly affecting higher purchasers, and with no evidence of a significant differential negative impact on expenditure by lower income groups. Our data supports the introduction of MUP as an effective policy option in other jurisdictions.
What is already known on this topic
Scotland introduced a minimum price of 50p per UK unit (6.25p per gram) for the sale of alcohol in May 2018
The only empirical evidence for the impact of minimum prices of alcohol sales so far come from Canadian provinces, which showed that increases in existing minimum prices were associated with reduced alcohol related harm
The present controlled study analyses the impact of the introduction of a minimum price per gram of alcohol sold in Scotland, based on a large household panel dataset and using objective data obtained from bar codes of sold products
What this study adds
This study compared data from Scottish households with those from English households to conduct a controlled interrupted time series analysis, and used data from households in northern England to control for potential cross border purchasing effects
Minimum unit pricing appeared to be effective at reducing alcohol purchases and, by inference, consumption in Scotland
Effects were greatest in households who purchased the most alcohol, with no evidence of a differential negative impact on expenditure by lower income groups
Edited by Driver101 on Sunday 29th September 18:36
crankedup said:
Driver101 said:
If MUP pushed people to the pubs that would be a positive in the fact their budget won't buy anywhere near the amount of alcohol.
I suspect it won't make any difference.
Do you mean if supermarket pints cost an equivalent to the price of a pub pint?I suspect it won't make any difference.
I don't think 50p per unit is anywhere near enough to push people back to pubs. The average pint is now £3.70 and it'd be £1.14 at MUP at the supermarket for a pint of 4% ABV.
The gap is still too big to push people back to the pub.
Driver101 said:
crankedup said:
Driver101 said:
If MUP pushed people to the pubs that would be a positive in the fact their budget won't buy anywhere near the amount of alcohol.
I suspect it won't make any difference.
Do you mean if supermarket pints cost an equivalent to the price of a pub pint?I suspect it won't make any difference.
I don't think 50p per unit is anywhere near enough to push people back to pubs. The average pint is now £3.70 and it'd be £1.14 at MUP at the supermarket for a pint of 4% ABV.
The gap is still too big to push people back to the pub.
crankedup said:
Which brings us back to our debate in this and other threads, pubs and clubs need to offer more than cheap beer as a service, which they do.
Going to a pub is no longer going to neck cheap beer. Stats show that consumption of beer is down massively, but people are paying more. People are paying more for good beer, or poor beer with exotic names, but that is another discussion. Pub grub quality has soared through recent years. That's what pulls people and there is good money in food. Many people go to pubs to eat and have a drink rather than the opposite.
The pubs that are dying are often the ones that just haven't kept up with modern trends.
Edited by Driver101 on Sunday 29th September 23:34
technodup said:
o you're in favour of government intervention for us, whilst observing that other countries with less government intervention have fewer problems with alcohol? Forgive me for being confused.
I'm in Spain right now. Lager on the same shelf as Coke in most of the shops. Bottles of wine for £1.20. Nobody falling over in the street steaming. It's almost as if people don't need some endless bureaucracy telling them what they can and can't do.
I did say education is key... I've been all over Europe and you're correct, pretty much every country has less intervention than us without the problems (well except the Faroe Islands - and not Europe but Canada - a 30 minute walk for the only beer shop in the entire district)I'm in Spain right now. Lager on the same shelf as Coke in most of the shops. Bottles of wine for £1.20. Nobody falling over in the street steaming. It's almost as if people don't need some endless bureaucracy telling them what they can and can't do.
Driver101 said:
Most of the things you've raised were in place a long time ago and nothing to do with minimum pricing.
Pubs and clubs can get licences to all hours depending on their local council. There is pubs open to 3am and clubs later than 3am.
The train curfew was to stop trouble.
I'm not up to speed with English rules, but I believe the 24 hour drinking laws didn't have the impact people thought? Not many places changed their opening hours? Supermarkets still only trade for a few hours on Sunday. Not the 24 hours we are used to in most placed in Scotland.
A tax would be fairer? There's already a lot of tax on alcohol. The problem was some drinks were very cheap considering how much damage they can do. That £50 bottle of gin has a lot of duty and VAT. About £20 of the £50 bottle of a good gin will be taxes.
Something like Frost Jack's only contributes about £2 and has 70-75% of the alcohol content. I'm sure most people don't tank a £50 bottle of gin, but nobody keeps a bottle of Frosty Jack's for weeks.
Never said they did have a thing to do with MUP but will all contribute to Scots consuming less alcohol.Pubs and clubs can get licences to all hours depending on their local council. There is pubs open to 3am and clubs later than 3am.
The train curfew was to stop trouble.
I'm not up to speed with English rules, but I believe the 24 hour drinking laws didn't have the impact people thought? Not many places changed their opening hours? Supermarkets still only trade for a few hours on Sunday. Not the 24 hours we are used to in most placed in Scotland.
A tax would be fairer? There's already a lot of tax on alcohol. The problem was some drinks were very cheap considering how much damage they can do. That £50 bottle of gin has a lot of duty and VAT. About £20 of the £50 bottle of a good gin will be taxes.
Something like Frost Jack's only contributes about £2 and has 70-75% of the alcohol content. I'm sure most people don't tank a £50 bottle of gin, but nobody keeps a bottle of Frosty Jack's for weeks.
Other than casino's or Xmas/Fringe in Edinburgh I can't recall being in a pub past 1am or club passed 3am in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Inverness, Dundee etc.
An additional tax ring-fenced for AA/NHS/whatever else alcohol related would be better. Very naive to think that someone who can afford a 50 quid bottle doesn't have potential alcohol problems. I done my licensing training for Edinburgh a few years back and we were asked to picture a person with alcohol problems. Everyone of us wrote down the same - scruffy, unshaven, smelt of booze etc etc. Can't mind the stat but alot of people with alcohol problems can come from middle classes with decent incomes (usually with stressful) jobs and that's what we were also taught to look out for. And thats my point regarding an additional tax of a few percent. The labour who finishes his day with 2L of strongbow and 8 units has seen his tipple rise in price from £2.20 to £5. The accountant or teacher who finishes there day with 3 large glasses of £15 red wine also at 8 units hasn't seen an increase in price.
I daresay a complete shift in attitudes from the public towards living a healthier life has done as much to lower alcohol intake as any of the government introduced gimmicks. You only need to see the amount of people at gyms, running, drinking shakes, wearing fitness trackers, eating healthier etc. Similarly with underage drinking, teens these days don't seem overly fussed about 4 cans down the local park. And why would they when they have 40" tele's, smartphones, Xbox live, fibre broadband and netflix etc.
BTW - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/01/russ...
Edited by sbarclay62 on Tuesday 1st October 10:00
sbarclay62 said:
I did say education is key... I've been all over Europe and you're correct, pretty much every country has less intervention than us without the problems (well except the Faroe Islands - and not Europe but Canada - a 30 minute walk for the only beer shop in the entire district)
What adult doesn't understand the dangers of excessive alcohol consumption? What can you really do to educate them?
Driver101 said:
What adult doesn't understand the dangers of excessive alcohol consumption?
What can you really do to educate them?
Does it not stem from childhood or teenage years though? When i was at high-school (15 years ago) people took great pride in the state they would get themselves in on a Friday night, walk into school on the Monday with a swagger after having to get their stomach pumped, bit oneupmanship. If that's your mentality with bevvy at a young age its easy to carry that on at a later life. What can you really do to educate them?
Was also reading a while back just as this legislation was introduced the biggest cause of alcohol problems (along with obesity and heart disease) was poverty - and the best fix was getting people out of poverty. Let's see what the government(s) plan is for that (although maybe not for this thread)
sbarclay62 said:
Driver101 said:
What adult doesn't understand the dangers of excessive alcohol consumption?
What can you really do to educate them?
Does it not stem from childhood or teenage years though? When i was at high-school (15 years ago) people took great pride in the state they would get themselves in on a Friday night, walk into school on the Monday with a swagger after having to get their stomach pumped, bit oneupmanship. If that's your mentality with bevvy at a young age its easy to carry that on at a later life. What can you really do to educate them?
Was also reading a while back just as this legislation was introduced the biggest cause of alcohol problems (along with obesity and heart disease) was poverty - and the best fix was getting people out of poverty. Let's see what the government(s) plan is for that (although maybe not for this thread)
We all knew the dangers. As did the ones who were taking drugs and sniffing gas.
Going back 25 or so years alcohol seemed far more expensive in the supermarkets. I can remember things like cases of Miller/Bud being more than £1 per bottle back then. Alcohol is cheaper now that is was then even ignoring inflation.
A couple of small bottles of Diamond White was everyone's pocket money. These days kids' pocket money buys enough alcohol to get smashed both nights at the weekend.
Also back then the corner shops had no issues selling kids alcohol if you had a note from your mum. There was always a guy outside earning a couple of quid off the kids if they didn't have a letter from mum for Diamond White.
The thing is reading so many different reports they all say different things.
Apparently it's not the poorest that drink most alcohol.
Apparently the UK is ranked 20th out of 30 European nations for alcohol consumption.
I've read that young ones are giving up alcohol at big rates, then on the other hand the young women are now one of the worst in Europe.
Driver101 said:
Apparently the UK is ranked 20th out of 30 European nations for alcohol consumption.
That's an interesting statistic because I'd like to know how that correlates with alcohol-induced health-related issues in those 30 nations. I'm willing to bet that the order will not be the same, again going back to that whole oversimplification of things by presuming that consumption itself is a driver of problems therefore reduce consumption and reduce the problems.Evercross said:
Driver101 said:
Apparently the UK is ranked 20th out of 30 European nations for alcohol consumption.
That's an interesting statistic because I'd like to know how that correlates with alcohol-induced health-related issues in those 30 nations. I'm willing to bet that the order will not be the same, again going back to that whole oversimplification of things by presuming that consumption itself is a driver of problems therefore reduce consumption and reduce the problems.https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death...
Driver101 said:
Evercross said:
Driver101 said:
Apparently the UK is ranked 20th out of 30 European nations for alcohol consumption.
That's an interesting statistic because I'd like to know how that correlates with alcohol-induced health-related issues in those 30 nations. I'm willing to bet that the order will not be the same, again going back to that whole oversimplification of things by presuming that consumption itself is a driver of problems therefore reduce consumption and reduce the problems.https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death...
Kind of suggests to me that fiddling with pricing is hopeless tinkering around the edges because of an unwillingness to take on the bigger issues.
sbarclay62 said:
Does it not stem from childhood or teenage years though? When i was at high-school (15 years ago) people took great pride in the state they would get themselves in on a Friday night, walk into school on the Monday with a swagger after having to get their stomach pumped, bit oneupmanship. If that's your mentality with bevvy at a young age its easy to carry that on at a later life.
Was also reading a while back just as this legislation was introduced the biggest cause of alcohol problems (along with obesity and heart disease) was poverty - and the best fix was getting people out of poverty. Let's see what the government(s) plan is for that (although maybe not for this thread)
Also heard today calls for a national emergency because so many people can’t afford to eat. The ignorant cynic would ask if they’re still affording their fags and booze...Was also reading a while back just as this legislation was introduced the biggest cause of alcohol problems (along with obesity and heart disease) was poverty - and the best fix was getting people out of poverty. Let's see what the government(s) plan is for that (although maybe not for this thread)
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