How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

[John145]

SunsetZed said:

Elysium said:

foreright said:

Elysium said:

If remain win, then that is the new democratic decision of the people.

So when would the third referendum be in this scenario?

Whenever there is a political will to do it.

What is the problem with a more current vote? A lot has changed in the last two years.

I highlighted the problem with a new vote in my view above. I'm still awaiting your reply to my follow-up question.

Also what question do you suggest for this new vote?

Unfortunately for the "People's Vote" lot nothing has actually changed since the last vote.

There is no new information than what we knew before. All that has been learned is that the "economic consensus" has been continuously wrong.

The government of the time told us leaving is leaving everything.

Now JFDI please.

[olimain]

Elysium said:

I agree. The terms in front of us currently are 'May's deal' or 'no-deal'. As it stands, both would need to be options for a referendum.

It's an easy 2-part question:

1. Leave or Remain

2. If we leave - Mays deal or no deal.

If leave wins, we proceed with the majority decision in respect of question 2.

I agree. Part 1 was answered in 2016, we should indeed now move on to part 2 before March now we know what leaving with a deal means vs leaving with no deal.

[saaby93]

BBC discussing where the border would be in the event of no deal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46546295

[Elysium]

olimain said:

Elysium said:

I agree. The terms in front of us currently are 'May's deal' or 'no-deal'. As it stands, both would need to be options for a referendum.

It's an easy 2-part question:

1. Leave or Remain

2. If we leave - Mays deal or no deal.

If leave wins, we proceed with the majority decision in respect of question 2.

I agree. Part 1 was answered in 2016, we should indeed now move on to part 2 before March now we know what leaving with a deal means vs leaving with no deal.

I think we might as well see if everyone is still on the same page regarding part 1.

[John145]

saaby93 said:

BBC discussing where the border would be in the event of no deal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46546295

To summarise: Everyone is saying there will be no hard border so we've decided to put a Fiction piece in the News section.

[s2art]

There is no such thing as 'no deal' . If nothing else is agreed before next march then its WTO terms plus whatever other items of trade the EU and UK agree to afterwards, probably something like Canada+ as Tusk has stated. It doesnt have to be done in one fell swoop, there is two years of status quo to finalise stuff. And many years after that to agree new or additional terms.

[saaby93]

John145 said:

saaby93 said:

BBC discussing where the border would be in the event of no deal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46546295

To summarise: Everyone is saying there will be no hard border so we've decided to put a Fiction piece in the News section.

Not really
Everyone has been saying no hard border in Ireland, not no border at all.
The question is whether between EU and Ireland, 15miles in Ireland away from the border, or in the Irish Sea

[John145]

saaby93 said:

John145 said:

saaby93 said:

BBC discussing where the border would be in the event of no deal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46546295

To summarise: Everyone is saying there will be no hard border so we've decided to put a Fiction piece in the News section.

Not really
Everyone has been saying no hard border in Ireland, not no border at all.
The question is whether between EU and Ireland, 15miles in Ireland away from the border, or in the Irish Sea

No it's not that's just fiction written by those who want to obfuscate. UK and Eire have no border agreement predating the EU and this will continue.

For the small potential issue of trade and people moving illegally between Eire and UK the idea of putting up any kind of border is totally disproportionate where much simpler solutions exist.

[loafer123]

If you want to understand why we need to get out, and quick, try reading this article on Politico advocating removing democratic votes because the population doesn't understand...

https://www.politico.eu/article/democracy-has-no-c...

[crankedup]

Ghibli said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Ghibli said:

Weren't we leaving the EU because we didn't like trading under WTO with the countries that we don't have deals with.

What is wrong with keeping the agreements we already have while negotiating new deals during our withdrawal implementation period.

Is it a case of hurting the EU and ourselves in the hope that the EU will forget about the backstop and give us special treatment as a third country? While trading under WTO wouldn't they need to apply the same treatment to all countries.

Partly because we would prefer to sign deals with additional countries, partly because the EU forces us to charge ourselves tariffs to protect inefficient EU producers.
The trouble with trying to negotiate new deals is the other party will ask when they will take effect, on being told 'not until the EU let's u out and we have no idea when or if that will ever happen' they aren't going to waste time talking to us.

And how are we going to be able to negotiate these deals with other countries if they don’t want to lower tariffs or if we have lowered our tariffs, what incentive will they have to lower theirs.

WTF.

[crankedup]

loafer123 said:

Elysium said:

If remain win, then that is the new democratic decision of the people.

...then we can go for best of three!

Hooray!

That’s all very well, but I may be called away on a high profile pressured business meeting causing me to miss out on my vote! That wouldn’t be fair

[anonymous-user]

crankedup said:

Ghibli said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Ghibli said:

Weren't we leaving the EU because we didn't like trading under WTO with the countries that we don't have deals with.

What is wrong with keeping the agreements we already have while negotiating new deals during our withdrawal implementation period.

Is it a case of hurting the EU and ourselves in the hope that the EU will forget about the backstop and give us special treatment as a third country? While trading under WTO wouldn't they need to apply the same treatment to all countries.

Partly because we would prefer to sign deals with additional countries, partly because the EU forces us to charge ourselves tariffs to protect inefficient EU producers.
The trouble with trying to negotiate new deals is the other party will ask when they will take effect, on being told 'not until the EU let's u out and we have no idea when or if that will ever happen' they aren't going to waste time talking to us.

And how are we going to be able to negotiate these deals with other countries if they don’t want to lower tariffs or if we have lowered our tariffs, what incentive will they have to lower theirs.

WTF.

Are you under the impression that the rest of the world will give us whatever we want?

[SunsetZed]

Ghibli said:

crankedup said:

Ghibli said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Ghibli said:

Weren't we leaving the EU because we didn't like trading under WTO with the countries that we don't have deals with.

What is wrong with keeping the agreements we already have while negotiating new deals during our withdrawal implementation period.

Is it a case of hurting the EU and ourselves in the hope that the EU will forget about the backstop and give us special treatment as a third country? While trading under WTO wouldn't they need to apply the same treatment to all countries.

Partly because we would prefer to sign deals with additional countries, partly because the EU forces us to charge ourselves tariffs to protect inefficient EU producers.
The trouble with trying to negotiate new deals is the other party will ask when they will take effect, on being told 'not until the EU let's u out and we have no idea when or if that will ever happen' they aren't going to waste time talking to us.

And how are we going to be able to negotiate these deals with other countries if they don’t want to lower tariffs or if we have lowered our tariffs, what incentive will they have to lower theirs.

WTF.

Are you under the impression that the rest of the world will give us whatever we want?

I think crankedup, like most posters here, are under the impression that you are an ill informed troll and is not going to waste their time engaging with you.

[PurpleMoonlight]

Ghibli said:

Are you under the impression that the rest of the world will give us whatever we want?

Don't worry, we can't decide what we want so it won't be an issue for them.

[soupdragon1]

John145 said:

saaby93 said:

BBC discussing where the border would be in the event of no deal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46546295

To summarise: Everyone is saying there will be no hard border so we've decided to put a Fiction piece in the News section.

The reality of the situation is that Ireland didn't vote to leave the EU, the UK did. Ireland are taking the stance to say no, we are not going to budge on the existing status quo. Quite simply, its a problem created by Brexit and they are handing the baton to the UK and saying 'its your problem, fix it'
The agreed solution agreed by EU and T May is that UK is taking ownership and are indeed, fixing it, via the WA.

Large parts of the UK aren't happy about the WA solution, but people need to face up to the reality that its part and parcel of Brexit, and people voted for Brexit.
Anyone who expects any different needs to stop and have a really good think about what they are asking for. Ie, we are leaving the EU, but we expect Ireland to take a punch on the nose to enable us to get the deal we want. Take T May out and put in anyone you care to mention, the Ireland and EU stance will not change. Its a ludicrous expectation from some UK politicians when you strip it back to its simplest form.

[olimain]

soupdragon1 said:

The reality of the situation is that Ireland didn't vote to leave the EU, the UK did. Ireland are taking the stance to say no, we are not going to budge on the existing status quo. Quite simply, its a problem created by Brexit and they are handing the baton to the UK and saying 'its your problem, fix it'
The agreed solution agreed by EU and T May is that UK is taking ownership and are indeed, fixing it, via the WA.

Large parts of the UK aren't happy about the WA solution, but people need to face up to the reality that its part and parcel of Brexit, and people voted for Brexit.
Anyone who expects any different needs to stop and have a really good think about what they are asking for. Ie, we are leaving the EU, but we expect Ireland to take a punch on the nose to enable us to get the deal we want. Take T May out and put in anyone you care to mention, the Ireland and EU stance will not change. Its a ludicrous expectation from some UK politicians when you strip it back to its simplest form.

Nobody is expecting Ireland to take a punch on the nose. From my experience (admittedly mainly rugby-based!), the UK love Ireland. It's politicians making this difficult for politicial gain.

[Dr Jekyll]

soupdragon1 said:

The reality of the situation is that Ireland didn't vote to leave the EU, the UK did. Ireland are taking the stance to say no, we are not going to budge on the existing status quo. Quite simply, its a problem created by Brexit and they are handing the baton to the UK and saying 'its your problem, fix it'
The agreed solution agreed by EU and T May is that UK is taking ownership and are indeed, fixing it, via the WA.

Large parts of the UK aren't happy about the WA solution, but people need to face up to the reality that its part and parcel of Brexit, and people voted for Brexit.
Anyone who expects any different needs to stop and have a really good think about what they are asking for. Ie, we are leaving the EU, but we expect Ireland to take a punch on the nose to enable us to get the deal we want. Take T May out and put in anyone you care to mention, the Ireland and EU stance will not change. Its a ludicrous expectation from some UK politicians when you strip it back to its simplest form.

How is not putting in a hard border giving Ireland a punch on the nose?

[Mrr T]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Ghibli said:

Are you under the impression that the rest of the world will give us whatever we want?

Don't worry, we can't decide what we want so it won't be an issue for them.

How dare you undermine brexit in that way.

We know exactly what we want, we want cake and eating it, and unicorns.

[Speed 3]

loafer123 said:

If you want to understand why we need to get out, and quick, try reading this article on Politico advocating removing democratic votes because the population doesn't understand...

https://www.politico.eu/article/democracy-has-no-c...

Written by: "Patrick Chalmers is a journalist, film maker and campaigner for better systems of government."

Hosted by: "POLITICO, a global nonpartisan politics and policy news organization"

.eu domain doesn't mean its written by the EU: "the domain is available for any person, company or organization based in the European Economic Area"

[FiF]

Mind you, reading a comment from Ashcroft, it seems a quarter of Remainers consider Brexit as serious a situation as the Cuban missile crisis, which could have literally been the end of the world. Talk about letting things get out of proportion.

Sorry, shouldn't laugh, but