Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 9

[Edinburger]

deadslow said:

Evercross said:

G_Morto said:

If this were WW2 I’d be drafted without complaint. You’d be receiving a white feather

I'd be officer rank. You'd be cannon fodder.

no. You would be a disloyal, disgruntled employee moaning incessantly on the internet.

[anonymous-user]

Point of order. There was no internet in WW2

[ant1973]

Edinburger said:

ant1973 said:

Edinburger said:

ant1973 said:

Get yer face nappy on and quit complaining....

I actually think there is going to be hell to pay over football. Every time I hear that cretin Leach speak, it sets my teeth on edge. So schools can go back, you can go to the pub, etc but football is being singled out for special treatment? The importance of football in the west coast of Scotland cannot be under-estimated. And it will affect her base in particular.

The importance of football in all of Scotland cannot be under-estimated, you mean. Plenty fans of the bigot brothers in Glasgow are glory hunters from all over Scotland.

That aside, how do you socially distance at football games? Hibs and Hearts are working with the SRU on hosting games at Murrayfield which could work, but how can it work at Celtic Park or Ibrox?

Bigger concern is grassroots football though.

1m SD at a football stadium means you are probably down at 25% capacity. The issue, however, is prevalence. We are now at 1:2200 (1:2500 unweighted) according to the ONS. The risks are accordingly tiny. If masks are effective (which I doubt), surely the risks are acceptable?

Is grass roots football not permitted in phase 3? My son is a very good player - on the cusp of pro-youth - and he is raring to go.

Yep, you're right.

I coach at a grassroots club and I'm on the committee. Grassroots teams should be able to train in phase 3 (different rules depending on whether they own their own facilities, etc.) and there's six weeks run in before games can start (SYFA and SWF rules). Today's briefing changes plans again as there's now different guidance for under 12 and 12-17 age groups so if that split carries into phase 3 we might be faced with different distancing/contact rules for different teams,m and in some cases different players within the same team.

By the way, be careful with pro-youth. They'll promise you and your son the world and more often than not it ends in tears. A tiny proportion of pro-youth players actually 'make it' and the difference between pro-youth and your top regional leagues is minuscule. My older lad went to a pro-youth team for a while and he quickly regretted it, in fact he stopped playing football for a while after that. My younger son as been approached but I won't send him 'til he's at least 14/15 and he agrees with this approach. Pro-youth academies ruin a lot of good players and good kids. Watch No Hunger In Paradise on BT Sport as that's quite an eye opener. Some clubs in Scotland have good set-ups but take promising players in far too early.

Agreed. Pro youth is 4 nights a week and weekends. Education comes first for me and I can see homework being skipped to make it all work. No hurry to push him in that direction and he is only 11. My son is blessed by being trained by an ex-pro who is fantastic and, to be honest, I would be reluctant to change.

[Evercross]

Edinburger said:

Evercross said:

G_Morto said:

If this were WW2 I’d be drafted without complaint. You’d be receiving a white feather

I'd be officer rank. You'd be cannon fodder.

No, Evercross - you'd be a cook or a cleaner and then you'd go home telling everyone you won the war!

Whereas you would be telling everyone "War, what war? I don't believe such conflict can exist therefore there is no war!"

"It is simply not true that Nazis hate the Jews. In fact I have a pamphlet here that shows pictures of a group Jews supporting Nazi uprising....".

Edited by Evercross on Thursday 2nd July 18:12

[ant1973]

G_Morto said:

ant1973 said:

I actually think this will be counter-productive. People are scared and already struggle to contextualise the risk they actually face. The act of requiring everyone to wear a mask emphasises that it is not "safe". I see this as damaging to retail rather than helping it. Retail is all about the "experience". Browsing, having a coffee, trying stuff on etc. Turning it into a joyless experience will discourage patronage. The online experience will be innately superior. It's the working poor who will suffer most.

That’s your theory but I don’t see any basis for it in reality. Is there evidence that mask wearing in other countries has damaged perceptions of safety when retail shopping?

I also think we’re far past the point of the majority being “scared” given that everyone has been desperate to get back to a normal social life.

The online experience has always been the future anyway. Here’s a question, surely the working poor will suffer more at the hands of snowflakes refusing to frequent their place of work as a sort of protest against wearing face masks and instead opting to solely purchase online as opposed to those who are content to put up with it and continue shopping at these businesses?

I can't point to research - only anecdotal evidence and opinion. If you ask older people, they just don't fancy it at all in my experience. Equally, I would be interested to know (genuinely) why you think compulsory masks will help prevent the spread?

I agree that the working poor will suffer more by people refusing to use physical shops. But that is not a reason to require masks in the first place. Aside from food shopping, I could not say I am an avid shopper, so not much of a loss to the world of retail.

I guess we will have to wait and see.

[ant1973]

Edinburger said:

G_Morto said:

ant1973 said:

I actually think this will be counter-productive. People are scared and already struggle to contextualise the risk they actually face. The act of requiring everyone to wear a mask emphasises that it is not "safe". I see this as damaging to retail rather than helping it. Retail is all about the "experience". Browsing, having a coffee, trying stuff on etc. Turning it into a joyless experience will discourage patronage. The online experience will be innately superior. It's the working poor who will suffer most.

That’s your theory but I don’t see any basis for it in reality. Is there evidence that mask wearing in other countries has damaged perceptions of safety when retail shopping?

I also think we’re far past the point of the majority being “scared” given that everyone has been desperate to get back to a normal social life.

The online experience has always been the future anyway. Here’s a question, surely the working poor will suffer more at the hands of snowflakes refusing to frequent their place of work as a sort of protest against wearing face masks and instead opting to solely purchase online as opposed to those who are content to put up with it and continue shopping at these businesses?

Interesting points here. If you go to SE Asia you'll see mask wearing is prolific after SARS with little impact on day to day life.

It's culturally embedded in that part of the world. And as I keep saying, if the evidence supported it, I would have no difficulty in accepting it.

[biggbn]

Evercross said:

Whereas you would be telling everyone "War, what war? I don't believe such conflict can exist therefore there is no war!"

"It is simply not true that Nazis hate the Jews. In fact I have a pamphlet here that shows pictures of a group Jews supporting Nazi uprising....".

Edited by Evercross on Thursday 2nd July 18:12

I certainly would not claim to speak for anyone else, so just for me, could you two give it up. Its getting really old, tired and now distasteful. And you are both, really both, usually much better contributors than this tittle tattle suggests

[Evercross]

biggbn said:

I certainly would not claim to speak for anyone else, so just for me, could you two give it up. Its getting really old, tired and now distasteful.

Sorry gbn, but it is his modus operandi of debate. He asserts an opinion and then weeks or months later when the matter crops up again he self-references his opinion as if it has become fact and the matter is settled. It deserves to be called out because ultimately it is just a tactic to stifle debate.

Admittedly the war analogy is becoming something that it is getting harder to use as as a society we seem to be becoming more embarrassed to discuss our history, but lets not be frightened of the point because of its method of delivery.

BTW Edinburger did once present us with a link to a zombie website purporting to be a group of English people supporting Scottish independence as evidence there was absolutely no xenophobia in the ranks of Scottish Nationalists.

Edited by Evercross on Thursday 2nd July 18:28

[renmure]

ant1973 said:

Agreed. Pro youth is 4 nights a week and weekends. Education comes first for me and I can see homework being skipped to make it all work. No hurry to push him in that direction and he is only 11. My son is blessed by being trained by an ex-pro who is fantastic and, to be honest, I would be reluctant to change.

I spent over 10 years working in professional football environments. Every year there would be a fresh bunch of 16 or so new full time youth / trainee / academy players and at the end of every 2 years 95% of them would be leaving to head off "down" the leagues. It's tough. In many ways you're better to be lucky than good.

[Edinburger]

ant1973 said:

Edinburger said:

ant1973 said:

Edinburger said:

ant1973 said:

Get yer face nappy on and quit complaining....

I actually think there is going to be hell to pay over football. Every time I hear that cretin Leach speak, it sets my teeth on edge. So schools can go back, you can go to the pub, etc but football is being singled out for special treatment? The importance of football in the west coast of Scotland cannot be under-estimated. And it will affect her base in particular.

The importance of football in all of Scotland cannot be under-estimated, you mean. Plenty fans of the bigot brothers in Glasgow are glory hunters from all over Scotland.

That aside, how do you socially distance at football games? Hibs and Hearts are working with the SRU on hosting games at Murrayfield which could work, but how can it work at Celtic Park or Ibrox?

Bigger concern is grassroots football though.

1m SD at a football stadium means you are probably down at 25% capacity. The issue, however, is prevalence. We are now at 1:2200 (1:2500 unweighted) according to the ONS. The risks are accordingly tiny. If masks are effective (which I doubt), surely the risks are acceptable?

Is grass roots football not permitted in phase 3? My son is a very good player - on the cusp of pro-youth - and he is raring to go.

Yep, you're right.

I coach at a grassroots club and I'm on the committee. Grassroots teams should be able to train in phase 3 (different rules depending on whether they own their own facilities, etc.) and there's six weeks run in before games can start (SYFA and SWF rules). Today's briefing changes plans again as there's now different guidance for under 12 and 12-17 age groups so if that split carries into phase 3 we might be faced with different distancing/contact rules for different teams,m and in some cases different players within the same team.

By the way, be careful with pro-youth. They'll promise you and your son the world and more often than not it ends in tears. A tiny proportion of pro-youth players actually 'make it' and the difference between pro-youth and your top regional leagues is minuscule. My older lad went to a pro-youth team for a while and he quickly regretted it, in fact he stopped playing football for a while after that. My younger son as been approached but I won't send him 'til he's at least 14/15 and he agrees with this approach. Pro-youth academies ruin a lot of good players and good kids. Watch No Hunger In Paradise on BT Sport as that's quite an eye opener. Some clubs in Scotland have good set-ups but take promising players in far too early.

Agreed. Pro youth is 4 nights a week and weekends. Education comes first for me and I can see homework being skipped to make it all work. No hurry to push him in that direction and he is only 11. My son is blessed by being trained by an ex-pro who is fantastic and, to be honest, I would be reluctant to change.

Wise words. I'd say let him play with his pals and the coach he's happy with. School is millions of times more important than football too, If he's good enough when he's old enough, he'll be picked up then.

[Edinburger]

Evercross said:

Edinburger said:

Evercross said:

G_Morto said:

If this were WW2 I’d be drafted without complaint. You’d be receiving a white feather

I'd be officer rank. You'd be cannon fodder.

No, Evercross - you'd be a cook or a cleaner and then you'd go home telling everyone you won the war!

Whereas you would be telling everyone "War, what war? I don't believe such conflict can exist therefore there is no war!"

"It is simply not true that Nazis hate the Jews. In fact I have a pamphlet here that shows pictures of a group Jews supporting Nazi uprising....".

Edited by Evercross on Thursday 2nd July 18:12

4/10 for that come back, to be fair.

[Edinburger]

biggbn said:

Evercross said:

Whereas you would be telling everyone "War, what war? I don't believe such conflict can exist therefore there is no war!"

"It is simply not true that Nazis hate the Jews. In fact I have a pamphlet here that shows pictures of a group Jews supporting Nazi uprising....".

Edited by Evercross on Thursday 2nd July 18:12

I certainly would not claim to speak for anyone else, so just for me, could you two give it up. Its getting really old, tired and now distasteful. And you are both, really both, usually much better contributors than this tittle tattle suggests

Fair point.

[Edinburger]

Evercross said:

biggbn said:

I certainly would not claim to speak for anyone else, so just for me, could you two give it up. Its getting really old, tired and now distasteful.

Sorry gbn, but it is his modus operandi of debate. He asserts an opinion and then weeks or months later when the matter crops up again he self-references his opinion as if it has become fact and the matter is settled. It deserves to be called out because ultimately it is just a tactic to stifle debate.

Admittedly the war analogy is becoming something that it is getting harder to use as as a society we seem to be becoming more embarrassed to discuss our history, but lets not be frightened of the point because of its method of delivery.

BTW Edinburger did once present us with a link to a zombie website purporting to be a group of English people supporting Scottish independence as evidence there was absolutely no xenophobia in the ranks of Scottish Nationalists.

Edited by Evercross on Thursday 2nd July 18:28

Not completely true - I've always acknowledged there may be a tiny proportion of xenophobia in the SNP. Just like in any walk of life.

[technodup]

Edinburger said:

You should pay attention to what's actually happening. Don't listen to this place too much, and vary your sources of information. Open your mind. And listen to the politicians rather than just criticising them. Make your own decisions in life.

We'd love to, the issue is the Fuhrer won't let us.

You wonder why there's so much anti Sturgeon, anti SNP stuff? Really?

[anonymous-user]

technodup said:

e'd love to, the issue is the Fuhrer won't let us.

You wonder why there's so much anti Sturgeon, anti SNP stuff? Really?

'so much'?

It's just a tiny minority spouting 'anti SNP' hate, as far as I can tell.

[ant1973]

renmure said:

ant1973 said:

Agreed. Pro youth is 4 nights a week and weekends. Education comes first for me and I can see homework being skipped to make it all work. No hurry to push him in that direction and he is only 11. My son is blessed by being trained by an ex-pro who is fantastic and, to be honest, I would be reluctant to change.

I spent over 10 years working in professional football environments. Every year there would be a fresh bunch of 16 or so new full time youth / trainee / academy players and at the end of every 2 years 95% of them would be leaving to head off "down" the leagues. It's tough. In many ways you're better to be lucky than good.

Yes - the odds are really poor. Try telling that to an 11 year old, though. It's hard to snuff out a dream! The best I can manage is "But if you don't make it, could we have a plan B based on..........."

[ant1973]

Edinburger said:

ant1973 said:

Edinburger said:

ant1973 said:

Edinburger said:

ant1973 said:

Get yer face nappy on and quit complaining....

I actually think there is going to be hell to pay over football. Every time I hear that cretin Leach speak, it sets my teeth on edge. So schools can go back, you can go to the pub, etc but football is being singled out for special treatment? The importance of football in the west coast of Scotland cannot be under-estimated. And it will affect her base in particular.

The importance of football in all of Scotland cannot be under-estimated, you mean. Plenty fans of the bigot brothers in Glasgow are glory hunters from all over Scotland.

That aside, how do you socially distance at football games? Hibs and Hearts are working with the SRU on hosting games at Murrayfield which could work, but how can it work at Celtic Park or Ibrox?

Bigger concern is grassroots football though.

1m SD at a football stadium means you are probably down at 25% capacity. The issue, however, is prevalence. We are now at 1:2200 (1:2500 unweighted) according to the ONS. The risks are accordingly tiny. If masks are effective (which I doubt), surely the risks are acceptable?

Is grass roots football not permitted in phase 3? My son is a very good player - on the cusp of pro-youth - and he is raring to go.

Yep, you're right.

I coach at a grassroots club and I'm on the committee. Grassroots teams should be able to train in phase 3 (different rules depending on whether they own their own facilities, etc.) and there's six weeks run in before games can start (SYFA and SWF rules). Today's briefing changes plans again as there's now different guidance for under 12 and 12-17 age groups so if that split carries into phase 3 we might be faced with different distancing/contact rules for different teams,m and in some cases different players within the same team.

By the way, be careful with pro-youth. They'll promise you and your son the world and more often than not it ends in tears. A tiny proportion of pro-youth players actually 'make it' and the difference between pro-youth and your top regional leagues is minuscule. My older lad went to a pro-youth team for a while and he quickly regretted it, in fact he stopped playing football for a while after that. My younger son as been approached but I won't send him 'til he's at least 14/15 and he agrees with this approach. Pro-youth academies ruin a lot of good players and good kids. Watch No Hunger In Paradise on BT Sport as that's quite an eye opener. Some clubs in Scotland have good set-ups but take promising players in far too early.

Agreed. Pro youth is 4 nights a week and weekends. Education comes first for me and I can see homework being skipped to make it all work. No hurry to push him in that direction and he is only 11. My son is blessed by being trained by an ex-pro who is fantastic and, to be honest, I would be reluctant to change.

Wise words. I'd say let him play with his pals and the coach he's happy with. School is millions of times more important than football too, If he's good enough when he's old enough, he'll be picked up then.

It's been a real source of pleasure to me. The ex pro is a well known guy and he is outstanding with the boys. Strangely enough there is also no carping from the parents as to where or when their son should be playing since no one has the nerve or experience to challenge him!

[biggbn]

Evercross said:

biggbn said:

I certainly would not claim to speak for anyone else, so just for me, could you two give it up. Its getting really old, tired and now distasteful.

Sorry gbn, but it is his modus operandi of debate. He asserts an opinion and then weeks or months later when the matter crops up again he self-references his opinion as if it has become fact and the matter is settled. It deserves to be called out because ultimately it is just a tactic to stifle debate.

Admittedly the war analogy is becoming something that it is getting harder to use as as a society we seem to be becoming more embarrassed to discuss our history, but lets not be frightened of the point because of its method of delivery.

BTW Edinburger did once present us with a link to a zombie website purporting to be a group of English people supporting Scottish independence as evidence there was absolutely no xenophobia in the ranks of Scottish Nationalists.

Edited by Evercross on Thursday 2nd July 18:28

So just ignore him?

[hidetheelephants]

ant1973 said:

Get yer face nappy on and quit complaining....

I actually think there is going to be hell to pay over football. Every time I hear that cretin Leach speak, it sets my teeth on edge. So schools can go back, you can go to the pub, etc but football is being singled out for special treatment? The importance of football in the west coast of Scotland cannot be under-estimated. And it will affect her base in particular.

fk football and the manbairns who inhabit it; why is it such a leach on Scottish public life and why is it the 'national' game when we're objectively so ste at it? It should be something like golf, or sailing, or curling, or tennis; you know, sport where there's actually a track record of Scotland not being consistently utter pish at it for over 3 decades.

[FN2TypeR]

hidetheelephants said:

fk football and the manbairns who inhabit it; why is it such a leach on Scottish public life and why is it the 'national' game when we're objectively so ste at it? It should be something like golf, or sailing, or curling, or tennis; you know, sport where there's actually a track record of Scotland not being consistently utter pish at it for over 3 decades.

It's a good way to channel the ol' religious bigotry, is all.

Although Scotland did win the World Cup at Wembley in 1967, so there are still some past glories to trade upon, it seems.