How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 4)

[Jockman]

djc206 said:

Jockman said:

People also voted in a GE since the referendum and overwhelmingly rejected the party that advocated a second referendum.

The GE was not fought over one issue. You could just as easily argue that we rejected the party on the basis that their leader was a homophobe or that we didn’t fancy a rise in income tax rates.

There is absolutely nothing undemocratic about a second referendum. That doesn’t make it a good idea or necessary but the argument that it’s undemocratic is frankly ridiculous.

Democracy cannot be undemocratic no matter how undesirable it may be.

Of course the GE was not fought on a single issue but don’t you think it pertinent that the question of a second referendum was found to be of such little interest to the electorate?

[crankedup]

Tuna said:

djc206 said:

There is absolutely nothing undemocratic about a second referendum. That doesn’t make it a good idea or necessary but the argument that it’s undemocratic is frankly ridiculous.

Democracy cannot be undemocratic no matter how undesirable it may be.

There's probably something to be said about 'practical democracy'. If your definition of democracy is to ask 'the people' whenever their will might have changed, then we'd add vote buttons to Twitter and have a daily referendum on whatever was in the news.

One of the points of our democratic system is that 'the people' may chose the direction, and act as a brake for extremist views, but we have representatives to implement their will. Those representatives are meant to (a) understand the situation and communicate it to their electorate and (b) make the decisions that a simple knee-jerk response wouldn't allow for.

Hence - we have elections every five years or so, and let our MPs 'get on with it' unless there are exception circumstances. Past experience tells us that mid-term polls usually run against the current party. It's completely normal for people to think, halfway through the implementation period, that things aren't going the way they wanted.

So... humm... it's not 'undemocratic' to have lots and lots of 'democracy' (votes) - it is however paralysing and tends to favour stasis. Those professional politicians who call for votes that they know are likely to derail an implementation phase may be acting in an 'undemocratic' manner, by deliberately calling for a situation that they know will prevent action being taken. At best they are being disingenuous (as are some on this forum) by claiming that 'more votes' are always to the benefit of the people.

Indeed, neat concise summary, we mentioned this to our grandson, he smiled knowingly giving us the confidence that he understands now. Good going for a five year old.

[djc206]

Tuna said:

There's probably something to be said about 'practical democracy'. If your definition of democracy is to ask 'the people' whenever their will might have changed, then we'd add vote buttons to Twitter and have a daily referendum on whatever was in the news. Anyone with a passing experience of Twitter will know what the result of that would be.

One of the points of our democratic system is that 'the people' may chose the direction, and act as a brake for extremist views, but we have representatives to implement their will. Those representatives are meant to (a) understand the situation and communicate it to their electorate and (b) make the decisions that a simple knee-jerk response wouldn't allow for.

Hence - we have elections every five years or so, and let our MPs 'get on with it' unless there are exception circumstances. Past experience tells us that mid-term polls usually run against the current party. It's completely normal for people to think, halfway through the implementation period, that things aren't going the way they wanted.

So... humm... it's not 'undemocratic' to have lots and lots of 'democracy' (votes) - it is however paralysing and tends to favour stasis. Those professional politicians who call for votes that they know are likely to derail an implementation phase may be acting in an 'undemocratic' manner, by deliberately calling for a situation that they know will prevent action being taken. At best they are being disingenuous (as are some on this forum) by claiming that 'more votes' are always to the benefit of the people.

I mostly agree with you which is why democracy in its purest form never worked out because people are fickle. I’m generally opposed to any referendum precisely because we pay people to make decisions for us supposedly on the basis of expert opinion...

More votes as you say are not necessarily good for the people. I’m not arguing that I’m arguing with the line that keeps getting trotted out on here that a second ref would be undemocratic, that involves redefining democracy, if we want to do that maybe we should hold a few referendums on the matter until we get the answer that allows those on here that point?

[djc206]

Jockman said:

Of course the GE was not fought on a single issue but don’t you think it pertinent that the question of a second referendum was found to be of such little interest to the electorate?

No. The GE was 6/17, the Brexit papers were published this year and Chequers was in July, the negotiations outcome is to be published in October. A second referendum was not pertinent because we’d only just envoked article 50, no detail of Brexit was known.

[ImonsterXI]

crankedup said:

Still awake Giblit, my five year old grandson always watches recordings of ‘The Night Garden’
following which he gets tucked up in bed ready for sleepybyes.

He still watches In the Night Garden at 5?! I'm sorry you have a disabled Grandson and wish him the best life possible

Back on topic, it seems quite clear from the "fk you" "nah fk you" "nah fk you" ad infinitum from the politicians down to us poor schmucks on a car forum that the matter has moved beyond Brexit to a matter of ego; both sides are now terrified that they will be on the the "losing" side at the end of all this which has hobbled all meaningful debate or action.

The next few months are going to be very interesting.

[djc206]

ImonsterXI said:

He still watches In the Night Garden at 5?! I'm sorry you have a disabled Grandson and wish him the best life possible

Back on topic, it seems quite clear from the "fk you" "nah fk you" "nah fk you" ad infinitum from the politicians down to us poor schmucks on a car forum that the matter has moved beyond Brexit to a matter of ego; both sides are now terrified that they will be on the the "losing" side at the end of all this which has hobbled all meaningful debate or action.

The next few months are going to be very interesting.

There’s really no need for that. I suggest you edit that first bit out of your post.

[Ridgemont]

ImonsterXI said:

He still watches In the Night Garden at 5?! I'm sorry you have a disabled Grandson and wish him the best life possible

That’s a bit crass.

My nephews enjoyed it till quite late (5/7 at the time). My 3yr old can’t stand it.
Either way pretty low comment.

ImonsterXI said:

Back on topic, it seems quite clear from the "fk you" "nah fk you" "nah fk you" ad infinitum from the politicians down to us poor schmucks on a car forum that the matter has moved beyond Brexit to a matter of ego; both sides are now terrified that they will be on the the "losing" side at the end of all this which has hobbled all meaningful debate or action.

The next few months are going to be very interesting.

Possibly. Or reflective of the fact we’re now at an inflection point. Both sides are acutely aware that from here on in , probably through to March, one side or the other has the opportunity to sweep up all the chips. Currently Leave (and the government as a proxy for leave) has the biggest stack but potentially a poor hand. Remain knows this is its last chance and is going all in. So the volume is set to get louder over the next few months.

To be honest I suspect I’ll take a leave of absence from social media and forums because the sound of people losing their st will be deafening.

[Ridgemont]

And on the subject of people losing their st North is on typical trenchant form:

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86967

The TLDR version: Raab’s incoming speech off the back of the release of the eagerly awaited bundles will state the risks of no deal Brexit and bluntly ask what the EU plans to do about it.

I ‘ave ‘ere a gun pointed at me own ‘ead. Why shouldn’t I blow it off?

[wisbech]

Ridgemont said:

And on the subject of people losing their st North is on typical trenchant form:

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86967

The TLDR version: Raab’s incoming speech off the back of the release of the eagerly awaited bundles will state the risks of no deal Brexit and bluntly ask what the EU plans to do about it.

I ‘ave ‘ere a gun pointed at me own ‘ead. Why shouldn’t I blow it off?

It worked in blazing saddles!

[Smiler.]

wisbech said:

Ridgemont said:

And on the subject of people losing their st North is on typical trenchant form:

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86967

The TLDR version: Raab’s incoming speech off the back of the release of the eagerly awaited bundles will state the risks of no deal Brexit and bluntly ask what the EU plans to do about it.

I ‘ave ‘ere a gun pointed at me own ‘ead. Why shouldn’t I blow it off?

It worked in blazing saddles!

"Do what he say, do what he say"

[anonymous-user]

alfie2244 said:

Ghibli said:

alfie2244 said:

No idea.....she's too busy trying to sort out far more important issues for which she is in great demand despite retiring 5 yrs ago.

That's a shame, she could have explained what will happen in a no deal situation.

I would think she is more concerned with actual problems that do exist currently, as should Drs IMO, not 2nd guessing what may or may not happen after Brexit....do you know what Will happen?

A few yrs ago now but she was involved in nurse recruitment and travelled world-wide...that was until orders were given to concentrate in favour of EU recruitment thereby discriminating against Indians etc .....which given the 40k shortage and the lack of UK nurses may not have been the best of ideas....there may be a Brexit link there for you to chew on.

I see, there is no point in looking towards what will happen in the event of a no deal Brexit and doctors shouldn't either. I guess that's the Brexit link that's being chewed on.

We should be ok though. The rest of the world will save the NHS now that we are leaving the EU.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 20th August 06:46

[JagLover]

Ridgemont said:

And on the subject of people losing their st North is on typical trenchant form:

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86967

The TLDR version: Raab’s incoming speech off the back of the release of the eagerly awaited bundles will state the risks of no deal Brexit and bluntly ask what the EU plans to do about it.

I ‘ave ‘ere a gun pointed at me own ‘ead. Why shouldn’t I blow it off?

Whether you agree or disagree with him over Brexit, he is spot on about our media.

[quote=NorthThis is the sort of mindless copy, written on autopilot, that our witless hacks are extruding in great quantity. But, assuming that we do have queues at the borders in March and April, it is pretty certain that things will have settled down by next August when Sanofi will be bringing in new supplies.

What this rather conveniently illustrates for us though is the almost universal inability of the legacy media to identify the Brexit pinch-points and where the difficulties might arise. I have yet to see one journalist who understands that the main issues come with exporting UK goods to EU Member States.

[mx5nut]

djc206 said:

You appear to have redefined democracy off the back of the ‘once in a generation’ line. Democracy is doing what the people want and if it were to appear they had changed their minds (which doesn’t seem to be the case at the moment) then in a proper democracy you would offer them the opportunity to do so or reaffirm their previous position. I’m not a big fan of direct democracy, it’s cumbersome, time consuming, expensive and subject to no sanity testing so I don’t think there should be a second ref but to argue that is undemocratic is an absolute non starter.

It's pretty scary how many people are happy to redefine democracy to mean "what David Cameron said it means" just because they got their own way once several years ago

[mx5nut]

djc206 said:

Democracy cannot be undemocratic no matter how undesirable it may be.

There are some here desperate to convince the nation that they are too stupid to have a say on what we do now the facts are becoming clear, in case they vote the "wrong" way!

[mx5nut]

sidicks said:

Feel,free to try and manipulate the definition if democracy to suit your personal prejudices.

In the real world however, the terms of the referendum were quite clear.

Sorry you’re still having trouble dealing with the fact that the majority don't share your view and so your side lost...

Imagine winning and still being this angry and insecure about it years later.

Can't imagine this attitude if Remain had won in 2016.

[mx5nut]

Murph7355 said:

The last one needs to be implemented.

We'll get right on that as soon as we can find two Leavers who can agree between themselves what they actually voted for.

If we can't, we might need to ask the "will of the people" to clarify things for us.

[Leonard Stanley]

ImonsterXI said:

crankedup said:

Still awake Giblit, my five year old grandson always watches recordings of ‘The Night Garden’
following which he gets tucked up in bed ready for sleepybyes.

He still watches In the Night Garden at 5?! I'm sorry you have a disabled Grandson and wish him the best life possible

Back on topic, it seems quite clear from the "fk you" "nah fk you" "nah fk you" ad infinitum from the politicians down to us poor schmucks on a car forum that the matter has moved beyond Brexit to a matter of ego; both sides are now terrified that they will be on the the "losing" side at the end of all this which has hobbled all meaningful debate or action.

The next few months are going to be very interesting.

What a y post.

[anonymous-user]

Leonard Stanley said:

ImonsterXI said:

crankedup said:

Still awake Giblit, my five year old grandson always watches recordings of ‘The Night Garden’
following which he gets tucked up in bed ready for sleepybyes.

He still watches In the Night Garden at 5?! I'm sorry you have a disabled Grandson and wish him the best life possible

Back on topic, it seems quite clear from the "fk you" "nah fk you" "nah fk you" ad infinitum from the politicians down to us poor schmucks on a car forum that the matter has moved beyond Brexit to a matter of ego; both sides are now terrified that they will be on the the "losing" side at the end of all this which has hobbled all meaningful debate or action.

The next few months are going to be very interesting.

What a y post.

Which post?

[Leonard Stanley]

Ghibli said:

Leonard Stanley said:

ImonsterXI said:

crankedup said:

Still awake Giblit, my five year old grandson always watches recordings of ‘The Night Garden’
following which he gets tucked up in bed ready for sleepybyes.

He still watches In the Night Garden at 5?! I'm sorry you have a disabled Grandson and wish him the best life possible

Back on topic, it seems quite clear from the "fk you" "nah fk you" "nah fk you" ad infinitum from the politicians down to us poor schmucks on a car forum that the matter has moved beyond Brexit to a matter of ego; both sides are now terrified that they will be on the the "losing" side at the end of all this which has hobbled all meaningful debate or action.

The next few months are going to be very interesting.

What a y post.

Which post?

The Grandson ad hom.

[anonymous-user]

Leonard Stanley said:

The Grandson ad hom.

Both then.