How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

[SunsetZed]

soupdragon1 said:

John145 said:

saaby93 said:

BBC discussing where the border would be in the event of no deal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46546295

To summarise: Everyone is saying there will be no hard border so we've decided to put a Fiction piece in the News section.

The reality of the situation is that Ireland didn't vote to leave the EU, the UK did. Ireland are taking the stance to say no, we are not going to budge on the existing status quo. Quite simply, its a problem created by Brexit and they are handing the baton to the UK and saying 'its your problem, fix it'
The agreed solution agreed by EU and T May is that UK is taking ownership and are indeed, fixing it, via the WA.

Large parts of the UK aren't happy about the WA solution, but people need to face up to the reality that its part and parcel of Brexit, and people voted for Brexit.
Anyone who expects any different needs to stop and have a really good think about what they are asking for. Ie, we are leaving the EU, but we expect Ireland to take a punch on the nose to enable us to get the deal we want. Take T May out and put in anyone you care to mention, the Ireland and EU stance will not change. Its a ludicrous expectation from some UK politicians when you strip it back to its simplest form.

Just because you don't create a problem doesn't mean you don't benefit from helping solve it. If my neighbour removes the fence between our gardens because he doesn't like the look of it and his dog then cr*ps all over my lawn I'm hardly going to say ah well never mind it's his fence I'm going to speak to him and sort it out like 2 adults. The same principles need to apply to solving the border and indeed the divorce and future relationships. Both sides have a shared interest in the outcome.

[anonymous-user]

FiF said:

Mind you, reading a comment from Ashcroft, it seems a quarter of Remainers consider Brexit as serious a situation as the Cuban missile crisis, which could have literally been the end of the world. Talk about letting things get out of proportion.

Sorry, shouldn't laugh, but

I dunno, reading on here there seems to be a goodly proportion of Leavers who think that staying in the EU would have been literally worse than the end of the world...

[gooner1]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Don't worry, we can't decide what we want so it won't be an issue for them.

We ? Who the fk is this "we".

[SpeckledJim]

soupdragon1 said:

John145 said:

saaby93 said:

BBC discussing where the border would be in the event of no deal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46546295

To summarise: Everyone is saying there will be no hard border so we've decided to put a Fiction piece in the News section.

The reality of the situation is that Ireland didn't vote to leave the EU, the UK did. Ireland are taking the stance to say no, we are not going to budge on the existing status quo. Quite simply, its a problem created by Brexit and they are handing the baton to the UK and saying 'its your problem, fix it'
The agreed solution agreed by EU and T May is that UK is taking ownership and are indeed, fixing it, via the WA.

Large parts of the UK aren't happy about the WA solution, but people need to face up to the reality that its part and parcel of Brexit, and people voted for Brexit.
Anyone who expects any different needs to stop and have a really good think about what they are asking for. Ie, we are leaving the EU, but we expect Ireland to take a punch on the nose to enable us to get the deal we want. Take T May out and put in anyone you care to mention, the Ireland and EU stance will not change. Its a ludicrous expectation from some UK politicians when you strip it back to its simplest form.

Isn't it actually the EU doing to the foot stamping?

Ireland are happy with the position and nature of their border, now and in the future. The UK is happy with the position and nature of their border, now and in the future.

It's the EU who are unhappy with the nature of the EU's border, which is their prerogative. But the situation was known when the EU welcomed UK and Rep. Ireland into their club, and it was aware of the possibility of either of them leaving when they created A50.

That they chose not to address that issue at the time is not the fault of either Rep. Ireland or the UK.

[blade runner]

Greg66 said:

I dunno, reading on here there seems to be a goodly proportion of Leavers who think that staying in the EU would have been literally worse than the end of the world...

It wouldn't be the end of the world by any means, but it would be the effective end of democracy in the UK if the result of the referendum was not upheld.

[Elysium]

blade runner said:

Greg66 said:

I dunno, reading on here there seems to be a goodly proportion of Leavers who think that staying in the EU would have been literally worse than the end of the world...

It wouldn't be the end of the world by any means, but it would be the effective end of democracy in the UK if the result of the referendum was not upheld.

Would it be the end of democracy to have a second referendum, with the full picture at hand and to uphold that result?

Why would one referendum be better than another?

[loafer123]

Speed 3 said:

loafer123 said:

If you want to understand why we need to get out, and quick, try reading this article on Politico advocating removing democratic votes because the population doesn't understand...

https://www.politico.eu/article/democracy-has-no-c...

Written by: "Patrick Chalmers is a journalist, film maker and campaigner for better systems of government."

Hosted by: "POLITICO, a global nonpartisan politics and policy news organization"

.eu domain doesn't mean its written by the EU: "the domain is available for any person, company or organization based in the European Economic Area"

I am well aware that Politico isn't an EU division.

It is a well known EU friendly news source which mainly projects a Europhile viewpoint.

I read it every day in order to understand the other sides of the argument.

[John145]

Elysium said:

blade runner said:

Greg66 said:

I dunno, reading on here there seems to be a goodly proportion of Leavers who think that staying in the EU would have been literally worse than the end of the world...

It wouldn't be the end of the world by any means, but it would be the effective end of democracy in the UK if the result of the referendum was not upheld.

Would it be the end of democracy to have a second referendum, with the full picture at hand and to uphold that result?

Why would one referendum be better than another?

I think a second referendum is neither an improvement or decline of democracy. However it is not a clever political choice and will only harden many people against the government. Also the EU will see it as another opportunity to play politics.

[blade runner]

Elysium said:

Would it be the end of democracy to have a second referendum, with the full picture at hand and to uphold that result?

No problem with a second referendum. But only once the result of the first one has been enacted.

There will never be the "full picture" to put forward - even now the WA is just the preamble to at least two years of the FTA negotiations with no certainty of what will come out of it at the end.

[anonymous-user]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Ghibli said:

Are you under the impression that the rest of the world will give us whatever we want?

Don't worry, we can't decide what we want so it won't be an issue for them.

The negotiations are going well parliament is united and the world is just waiting to give us whatever we want.

What could go wrong

[anonymous-user]

SunsetZed said:

I think crankedup, like most posters here, are under the impression that you are an ill informed troll and is not going to waste their time engaging with you.

And you will find that your post is a troll post.

[olimain]

Elysium said:

Would it be the end of democracy to have a second referendum, with the full picture at hand and to uphold that result?

Why would one referendum be better than another?

We don't and won't have the full picture at hand though? If we hold one do you expect the campaigns to all agree and say

1. May's deal is bad for every reason
2. Remain is good for these reasons, bad for these reasons
3. Leave is good for these reasons, bad for these reasons

Of course not (actually they'll probably agree on point 1), it will be exactly the same. Remain will say the sky will fall in, Leave will say we'll all be billionaires AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN.

Absolutely nothing has changed, we don't know any more than we did, it's been another 2.5 years of bullst and incompetence from all sides. We need to leave, as promised and if it's st then we campaign to rejoin.

[gooner1]

Ghibli said:

The negotiations are going well parliament is united and the world is just waiting to give us whatever we want.

What could go wrong

You could forget to put..

Genuine Question. Not trolling.

on your posts?

[PositronicRay]

Not sure how many have read the Flexcit documents.

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

[FiF]

John145 said:

Elysium said:

blade runner said:

Greg66 said:

I dunno, reading on here there seems to be a goodly proportion of Leavers who think that staying in the EU would have been literally worse than the end of the world...

It wouldn't be the end of the world by any means, but it would be the effective end of democracy in the UK if the result of the referendum was not upheld.

Would it be the end of democracy to have a second referendum, with the full picture at hand and to uphold that result?

Why would one referendum be better than another?

I think a second referendum is neither an improvement or decline of democracy. However it is not a clever political choice and will only harden many people against the government. Also the EU will see it as another opportunity to play politics.

Back on Ashcroft, he's also reporting that there seems to be a hardening of attitude against compromise. Need to read more to figure out how he combines his results to reach that observation.

[soupdragon1]

SunsetZed said:

Just because you don't create a problem doesn't mean you don't benefit from helping solve it. If my neighbour removes the fence between our gardens because he doesn't like the look of it and his dog then cr*ps all over my lawn I'm hardly going to say ah well never mind it's his fence I'm going to speak to him and sort it out like 2 adults. The same principles need to apply to solving the border and indeed the divorce and future relationships. Both sides have a shared interest in the outcome.

If we're going to use that analogy, then at present, there is no dog running into the garden - all there is is a risk of your dog running into the garden. But if you've got a dog, and you pull the fence down, knock my door and say lets go half and half on getting a new fence....I'm going to look at you funny.

[soupdragon1]

olimain said:

soupdragon1 said:

The reality of the situation is that Ireland didn't vote to leave the EU, the UK did. Ireland are taking the stance to say no, we are not going to budge on the existing status quo. Quite simply, its a problem created by Brexit and they are handing the baton to the UK and saying 'its your problem, fix it'
The agreed solution agreed by EU and T May is that UK is taking ownership and are indeed, fixing it, via the WA.

Large parts of the UK aren't happy about the WA solution, but people need to face up to the reality that its part and parcel of Brexit, and people voted for Brexit.
Anyone who expects any different needs to stop and have a really good think about what they are asking for. Ie, we are leaving the EU, but we expect Ireland to take a punch on the nose to enable us to get the deal we want. Take T May out and put in anyone you care to mention, the Ireland and EU stance will not change. Its a ludicrous expectation from some UK politicians when you strip it back to its simplest form.

Nobody is expecting Ireland to take a punch on the nose. From my experience (admittedly mainly rugby-based!), the UK love Ireland. It's politicians making this difficult for politicial gain.

There is no political gain for Ireland. Even T May's deal isn't good for Ireland. Its just better than no deal. There is nothing to gain at all, I don't even know how anyone can see how this makes life better for Ireland as it clearly doesn't. Its not a good situation and asking them to take one on the chin to smooth the process for the UK just isn't cricket.

[Elysium]

olimain said:

Elysium said:

Would it be the end of democracy to have a second referendum, with the full picture at hand and to uphold that result?

Why would one referendum be better than another?

We don't and won't have the full picture at hand though? If we hold one do you expect the campaigns to all agree and say

1. May's deal is bad for every reason
2. Remain is good for these reasons, bad for these reasons
3. Leave is good for these reasons, bad for these reasons

Of course not (actually they'll probably agree on point 1), it will be exactly the same. Remain will say the sky will fall in, Leave will say we'll all be billionaires AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN.

Absolutely nothing has changed, we don't know any more than we did, it's been another 2.5 years of bullst and incompetence from all sides. We need to leave, as promised and if it's st then we campaign to rejoin.

I know a lot more than I did.

i had little interest in the machinations of the EU and the politics that seems to motivate leavers. I voted for the status quo, because I could not see what could be gained by leaving.

Having seen all that has followed and having read some of the technical advice issued by the Govt in anticipation of no-deal, I know a great deal more.

[paulrockliffe]

soupdragon1 said:

SunsetZed said:

Just because you don't create a problem doesn't mean you don't benefit from helping solve it. If my neighbour removes the fence between our gardens because he doesn't like the look of it and his dog then cr*ps all over my lawn I'm hardly going to say ah well never mind it's his fence I'm going to speak to him and sort it out like 2 adults. The same principles need to apply to solving the border and indeed the divorce and future relationships. Both sides have a shared interest in the outcome.

If we're going to use that analogy, then at present, there is no dog running into the garden - all there is is a risk of your dog running into the garden. But if you've got a dog, and you pull the fence down, knock my door and say lets go half and half on getting a new fence....I'm going to look at you funny.

I think the analogy needs to acknowledge that neither you nor the neighbour wants a fence, the Council is saying you can't have a fence and the dhead that lives opposite keeps knocking the fence down anyway.

[paulrockliffe]

Elysium said:

I know a lot more than I did.

i had little interest in the machinations of the EU and the politics that seems to motivate leavers. I voted for the status quo, because I could not see what could be gained by leaving.

Having seen all that has followed and having read some of the technical advice issued by the Govt in anticipation of no-deal, I know a great deal more.

Well done you.