Junior Doctor's contracts petition

[Welshbeef]

This strike is not about patient safety it is about terms and conditions and sadly these JDs are using this as a smoke screen (or at least it is being said for them).

A shame.
Settled will of the public attempted to be ignored.

[sidicks]

jjlynn27 said:

So, what was misleading? You valued ps pensions at '25% or more'. So the pension of 12% on double the amount (no contribution) is less than half as generous, than a pension of '25% or more' where you have to actually contribute to it, from your own salary? And where that contributing pension is subject to 'economic reality'? Seriously?

.

You still don't understand that the relevant metric is the taxpayer subsidy, the employee's contribution is irrelevant in this comparison?

You are also apparently ignorant of the returns currently available on risk free investments and the impact they would have on the side of pension that could be achieved.

But then you're not an expert in any shape or form, so why would you understand this?!

[andyps]

ucb said:

andyps said:

I was thinking about this - if the dispite is partly about work patterns and trying to show that we currently have a 7 day NHS surely it would be appropriate to hold the strikes at weekend to demonstrate the impact of not working then. But maybe there is a reason the BMA chose not to do this.

One of the 5 day strikes runs over a weekend

It does, but the weekend will be covered so it seems (as I understand it) the strike will not be taking place over the weekend, just around it.

Dixy said:

Hunts agenda is to privatize the NHS, he even wrote a book about it, so all this plays in to his hands. Ironically if he succeeds Doctors salaries in the future will rocket, an inconvenient truth for those that say the strike is all about self interest..

But what is "privatise"? The NHS has used private suppliers and sub-contractors since July 5th 1948, so there is quite a long-standing precedent for privatisation within the NHS. Are you talking about something different, something not publicly funded, not free at the point of use? Does it matter if, without charge, you get the care needed at the right cost to the country who actually delivers it?

[paulrockliffe]

jjlynn27 said:

paulrockliffe said:

jjlynn27 said:

Their bold.

DoH is also 'strongly advising' doctors to take their own insurance or take membership of defence body, such as MDU.

I don't know a single doctor, conultant or jd, that doesn't have either MDU membership or own insurance through one of the few providers. Do you?

Do you have to take private indemnity insurance to do work for the company that you work for? Is there an advice from your professional body to take out such insurance?

Edited by jjlynn27 on Friday 2nd September 12:09

So it's not compulsory then. No one has to take it out. Why is it being advised rather than made mandatory if it's mandatory?

You take your time.

Do you think it's mandatory? Even though it clearly isn't?

Don't you think it's advised because JDs routinely undertake non NHS work that isn't covered by NHS insurance and because the NHS acts as sort-of-agent in loosely facilitating this work that it has a duty of care to make sure JDs don't assume it is insured by the NHS and end up in hot water when it turns out someone that was signed off dead isn't dead or whatever?

Do you realise it's your evidence that shows it isn't mandatory? Take your time.....

[Evanivitch]

paulrockliffe said:

So it's not compulsory then. No one has to take it out. Why is it being advised rather than made mandatory if it's mandatory?

It's okay, JJLyn22 is bow back tracking on what was stated previously because he was clearly wrong. NHS contracts do not require doctors to take indemnity policies.

[eldar]

My take.

This strike is partly political, partly JD pay. Patient welfare is a very poor third.

I've seen the picketing JDs and their supporters waving their Socialist Worker placards, and listened to their various spokespersons on TV.

Look at this thread, its all about money, pensions and how unfairly they are being treated. Bit like train strikers, just with posher accents.

If train drivers strike, I can live with the inconvenience. If JDs strike they are trying to use peoples lives and health as their lever.

They have the same mindset as Scargill's miners had. Convinced they are a special case, being victimised and have the public completely behind them. And unaware of just how tough and dirty politics can become.

If it goes ahead it will end in tears, and give the government the easiest excuse to reform/privatise the NHS. There is no opposition.

[Digga]

jjlynn27 said:

You take your time.

Perhaps take your own medicine?

[FGB]

eldar said:

There is no opposition.

Jezza Corbs is going to save the day

[Jockman]

eldar said:

This strike is partly political, partly JD pay. Patient welfare is a very poor third.

Did not the revelation of the Whatsapps earlier in the year confirm a predominently political angle?

[eldar]

FGB said:

Jezza Corbs is going to save the day

Thank fk for that, we are saved!

[ucb]

Evanivitch said:

paulrockliffe said:

So it's not compulsory then. No one has to take it out. Why is it being advised rather than made mandatory if it's mandatory?

It's okay, JJLyn22 is bow back tracking on what was stated previously because he was clearly wrong. NHS contracts do not require doctors to take indemnity policies.

Maybe not the NHS, but the GMC require it of doctors:
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/information_for_doct...

[dmsims]

ucb said:

Maybe not the NHS, but the GMC require it of doctors:
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/information_for_doct...

and maybe you should read that .......

[Rude-boy]

One thing that i just can't help thinking when i look at all of this debate is if life is so bloody fantastic for JD's elsewhere in the World and they are so concerned about patient safety why are they wasting their time and potentially killing people striking?

Why not just go off to one of these Utopias?

My profession has had the st kicked out of it mercilessly over the last 20+ years. I'm 14 years PQE and today i have to do at least double the work that i had to do per matter when I first started for the same sort of fee I would have charged 14 years ago. I'm not happy about it but get on with it because i still want to do this job and at the end of the day i am much better off than most of the rest of the country on many metrics. That said if the balance tipped i would have no hesitation in ditching the job and career for something else.

Sorry JD's the writing has been on the wall for many years now, your contracts were fine and dandy many years ago but the World has changed so much in the last 20 years that they needed a total rework to fit in with C21 living. You might not like it but don't tell me you didn't see it coming (or else i will have to reconsider my stereotypical level of basic intelligence reserved for people in that profession) or that your are a special case, because frankly you are not.

[Dixy]

Rude-boy said:

Why not just go off to one of these Utopias?

They are in their droves, or leaving the industry totally.
Part of the critical JD shortage and consequential overworking of present doctors is the NHS inability to fill vacancys. Hence why they are changing the contract so there will be no penalty for infringing on unacceptable rotas.

Being legally absent from work means what goes on in your absence is not your fault, so it will be the fault of the trust
if a patient dies due to lack of care, the fact the trust can not get a clinician is the fault of Hunt.

[anonymous-user]

crankedup said:

I have mainly kept out of this debate but I have a deep and meaningful comment, I suspect the JD do not want to strike but it is the last option open to them. No doubt the Government will take this opportunity to outlaw all strikes by our critically important public service sectors.
Next industry to come under the spotlight, and it's not public sector, are the investment houses dealing with multi billions of pounds and happy to coast along as long as the investment performance is average. One of these investment houses has declared that it is stopping all future bonus payments to staff, but they are having an increase in basic salary apparently.

So what's your 'deep and meaningful comment'?

[eldar]

Dixy said:

They are in their droves, or leaving the industry totally.
Part of the critical JD shortage and consequential overworking of present doctors is the NHS inability to fill vacancys. Hence why they are changing the contract so there will be no penalty for infringing on unacceptable rotas.

Being legally absent from work means what goes on in your absence is not your fault, so it will be the fault of the trust
if a patient dies due to lack of care, the fact the trust can not get a clinician is the fault of Hunt.

Hunt is part of an elected government - the JDs had a vote the same as everyone else. Do we want unelected pressure groups dictating government policy?

[ucb]

dmsims said:

ucb said:

Maybe not the NHS, but the GMC require it of doctors:
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/information_for_doct...

and maybe you should read that .......

I'm fully familiar with it. What are you trying to allude to with your attempt at a knowing and condescending approach?

[barryrs]

Between 2006 and 2014 a total of 2200 British doctors took a job in Aus.

Thats 244 per year and im sure many will have returned since.

On the flip side the NHS has recruited 3000 doctors from overseas in a single year as reported in the guardian last year.

[andyps]

ucb said:

dmsims said:

ucb said:

Maybe not the NHS, but the GMC require it of doctors:
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/information_for_doct...

and maybe you should read that .......

I'm fully familiar with it. What are you trying to allude to with your attempt at a knowing and condescending approach?

I guess it might be this part:

GMC said:

If you only work for the NHS (or for the HSC in Northern Ireland), the organisation you work for will receive indemnity through a clinical negligence scheme.

In England, indemnity is provided through the Clinical Negligence Scheme for Trusts (CNST), which is administered by the NHS Litigation Authority.
In Wales, indemnity is provided by Welsh Risk Pool Services.
In Scotland, indemnity is provided by the Clinical Negligence and Other Risks Indemnity Scheme.
In Northern Ireland each HSC Trust assumes the role, funded by the Department of Health, Social Security and Public Safety.
You may want to consider whether you need to take out additional personal insurance or indemnity for work that arises out of your NHS, HSC or local government employment, but which is not covered by their indemnity arrangements. Such work includes completing cremation certificates and insurance claim forms, or providing medico-legal reports.

That pretty much says that if a doctor only works for the NHS they don't need the insurance. What percentage complete crematorium certificates, insurance claim forms or medico-legal reports as part of their NHS work? Genuine question as I do not have any familiarity.

[dmsims]

ucb said:

dmsims said:

ucb said:

Maybe not the NHS, but the GMC require it of doctors:
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/information_for_doct...

and maybe you should read that .......

I'm fully familiar with it. What are you trying to allude to with your attempt at a knowing and condescending approach?

OK to spell it out: what part of that says it is required by the GMC ?