Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[XJ Flyer]

toppstuff said:

XJ Flyer said:

That is actually a better description of the level of thinking that exists within NATO since starting its eastward expansion.

XJ - I think I going to call you " The Weak Appeaser" from here on...

You seem so keen to appease the bear; give them what they want.

What makes you think appeasement is the right thing to do?

When will it end?

How has appeasement worked out through history?

To my knowledge the Ukrainian army's position is still that of calling for a ceasefire to negotiate a solution with Russia.

As opposed to re arming to the teeth with western hardware and then going for an all out conventional assault with US military support especially in the air together with ethnic cleansing of the Russian population afterwards.Which is what it would take to kick Russia out of eastern Ukraine and Crimea.Feel free to provide reasons as to why the latter option as opposed to the former hasn't as yet taken place instead of the former.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 4th September 14:27

Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 4th September 14:29

[toppstuff]

scherzkeks said:

parts of my profile might be nonsense.

It was easy to figure that out long before you admitted to it.

[scherzkeks]

toppstuff said:

It was easy to figure that out long before you admitted to it.

Nothing slips by you does it.

[SilverSixer]

XJ Flyer said:

vonuber said:

My granddad was Polish. after WW2 he couldn't go back (after escaping to the UK) because he would have been shot as he had the temerity to resist the Russian invasion of 1939.
And people wonder why East Europeans hate Russians.

The idea that east Europeans should hate the Russians over what happened in WW2 makes no more sense than Russia and France etc hating the Germans.It is over and time to move on.The fact is things might be looking a lot different now 'if' eastern Europe had shown some better faith towards Russia by keeping the east European areas neutral instead of moving NATO into them.At worst there was nothing to lose being that NATO's ultimate defence strategy against Russia is always going to be the nuclear deterrent.In which case it will make no difference wether eastern Europe was neutral or part of NATO assuming both sides ever go to war.

Sorry but what a load of rubbish. Most people in Eastern Europe feel WW2 only ended when the USSR collapsed in 1991, they'd been under occupation since 1945 essentially. Why would they feel they needed to show some "good faith" immediately after the end of the occupation? That's exactly the time they'd look to consolidate their new won freedom.

(My credentials - an honours graduate in Russian Studies, degree gained partly at Moscow State University (MGU) in 1991 (the very year the USSR went tits), several periods of study/residence in the Soviet Union. Subsequently married to a Yugoslav for 16 years and counting).

Edited by SilverSixer on Thursday 4th September 14:47

[alfaman]

XJ Flyer said:

We know Poland is moving ahead and the reason for that is because we're going backwards having transferred west European wealth to make eastern Europe richer.Which is all about using our money as a bribe to facilitate Bush's post Cold War plans to push NATO into Crimea.However it seems like Russia has said enough and stopped the plan in it's tracks.Unless that is the Ukrainian requested ceasefire is now off the table and WW3 is back on again.

I'm guessing economics politics business and history aren't your strong points

Poland grew massively in the 90s after they were unchained from Yeltsin or whichever drunk was in charge of Russia then.

Poland simply opened up for business and embraced the free market and private enterprise.

I was there in '95 looking to buy their number 2 brewer - it was an amazing and optimistic time for the country. So much energy once they had been set free from the USSR / Soviet grip.

Note they weren't in the EU then / receiving loads of western subsidies as you suggest.

Sadly for Ukraine they weren't as free - as the Poles joked back then ... "Why does Ukraine exist ?(which was a sthole back then) ... To make
Belarus look good...."

Edited by alfaman on Thursday 4th September 14:42

[toppstuff]

scherzkeks said:

toppstuff said:

It was easy to figure that out long before you admitted to it.

Nothing slips by you does it.

Its my Mi6 training.

[XJ Flyer]

SilverSixer said:

XJ Flyer said:

vonuber said:

My granddad was Polish. after WW2 he couldn't go back (after escaping to the UK) because he would have been shot as he had the temerity to resist the Russian invasion of 1939.
And people wonder why East Europeans hate Russians.

The idea that east Europeans should hate the Russians over what happened in WW2 makes no more sense than Russia and France etc hating the Germans.It is over and time to move on.The fact is things might be looking a lot different now 'if' eastern Europe had shown some better faith towards Russia by keeping the east European areas neutral instead of moving NATO into them.At worst there was nothing to lose being that NATO's ultimate defence strategy against Russia is always going to be the nuclear deterrent.In which case it will make no difference wether eastern Europe was neutral or part of NATO assuming both sides ever go to war.

Sorry but what a load of rubbish. Most people in Eastern Europe feel WW2 only ended when the USSR collapsed in 1991, they'd been under occupation since 1945 essentially. Why would they feel they needed to show some "good faith" immediately after the end of the occupation? That's exactly the time they'd look to consolidate their new won freedom.

(My credentials - an honours graduate in Russian Studies, degree gained partly at Moscow State University (MGU) in 1991 (the very year the USSR went tits), several periods of study/residence in the Soviet Union. Subsequently married to a Yugoslav for 16 years and counting).

Edited by SilverSixer on Thursday 4th September 14:47

How ironic that Yugoslavia should be mentioned.IE a region that dragged Europe into WW1 against Germany by calling on the support of its Russian allies on the basis of slavic unity.Which at that time us and France were only to keen to join on the side of ..... Russia.

As for 'consolidating' that 'new found freedom'.Welcome to NATO as I've said they are still in the position of having to live with and negotiate with the Russian bear or die just like the rest of us in the alliance since at least 1950.

[XJ Flyer]

toppstuff said:

scherzkeks said:

toppstuff said:

It was easy to figure that out long before you admitted to it.

Nothing slips by you does it.

Its my Mi6 training.

I notice that as expected it obviously wasn't good enough to provide an answer to my question,as to why Ukraine seems to have chosen my idea of 'appeasement' in calling for a ceasefire and negotiations with Russia.

As opposed to re arming to the teeth with western hardware like Abrahms and Leopard tanks and MLRS systems etc etc and then using it all,with the help of US air support and 'NATO advisors' to help with use of said hardware,for an all out assault on Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.Followed by a programme of ethnic cleansing in order to kick the Russians out with this blaring from loudspeakers for the soundtrack to keep morale up.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SndPb5XohYM

Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 4th September 16:40

Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 4th September 16:45

[SilverSixer]

So, what justification do you think Eastern Europe could have used to support this "good faith" in Russia which you suggest they should have had, and what historical reasons would they have had for acting in this "good faith"?

Is there any way in which you think their implied selfishness in not pursuing this "good faith" was unjustified? What had Russia done to deserve this "good faith" and how, with particular reference to the political situation in Russia in 1991 and shortly afterwards, could it be demonstrated that they deserved it?

(You have 3 hours to answer all questions. If you need extra paper please ask the invigilator by silently raising a hand and waiting patiently. ;-))

[skyrover]

Russian Uragan heavy artillery heading towards Mariupol on Ukraines southern coast

[AreOut]

vonuber said:

As an aside, regarding Crimea being part of Ukraine in 1954.. well, 8 years earlier large parts of Russia was actually Poland and Lithuania, and parts of Poland were Germany. Maybe they should start getting their territory back too.

Crimea is quite complicated issue, it was gifted to Ukraine because back then they thought the Soviet Union was never going to break apart, and that issue should be solved in 1990/1 but they had more important things to do then

[XJ Flyer]

SilverSixer said:

So, what justification do you think Eastern Europe could have used to support this "good faith" in Russia which you suggest they should have had, and what historical reasons would they have had for acting in this "good faith"?

Is there any way in which you think their implied selfishness in not pursuing this "good faith" was unjustified? What had Russia done to deserve this "good faith" and how, with particular reference to the political situation in Russia in 1991 and shortly afterwards, could it be demonstrated that they deserved it?

(You have 3 hours to answer all questions. If you need extra paper please ask the invigilator by silently raising a hand and waiting patiently. ;-))

I'll answer that question if/when topstuff answers mine.

Although the fact that Russia finally decided to forget about WW2 and leave those buffer states and hand them back to their own governments might be a clue.It is too late for that now though.We're now back in the Cold War big time probably more like a Warm War.Hopefully NATO will stop living in denial about the fact that it has been rumbled by the Russians before it is too late for that too.

[jmorgan]

The bank went bust and they could no longer keep control.

[prand]

XJ Flyer said:

I'll answer that question if/when topstuff answers mine.

Although the fact that Russia finally decided to forget about WW2 and leave those buffer states and hand them back to their own governments might be a clue.It is too late for that now though.We're now back in the Cold War big time probably more like a Warm War.Hopefully NATO will stop living in denial about the fact that it has been rumbled by the Russians before it is too late for that too.

I'm going to have to unfollow this thread. XJ Flyer is doing my head in. What he says does not seem to bear any relation to either the history I have learned or the experience I or people from all parts of Europe I know have had.

[toppstuff]

XJ Flyer said:

I'll answer that question if/when topstuff answers mine.

I'd love to, truly. The problem is that no-one has a bloody clue what you are on about. Its just a barrage of unpunctuated, ill-conceived and ignorant noise.

Make yourself clear, man. Preferably in less than 30 words.

[Finlandia]

XJ Flyer said:

my view is that Russia is a dangerous paranoid neighbour

XJ Flyer said:

based on irrational hatred

Pardon?

Would that irrational hatred have anything to do with how the dangerous and paranoid Russia bullied, threatened, invaded, raped and killed their neighbours?

[XJ Flyer]

Finlandia said:

XJ Flyer said:

my view is that Russia is a dangerous paranoid neighbour

XJ Flyer said:

based on irrational hatred

Pardon?

Would that irrational hatred have anything to do with how the dangerous and paranoid Russia bullied, threatened, invaded, raped and killed their neighbours?

If Russia could forgive the Germans enough to now buy German trucks and cars,and Israel can forgive Germany enough to not now nuke the place,I'm sure that Russia's neighbours could have just forgot all their past differences with the Russians.Although it seems strange how all that slavic unity that kicked off WW1 was replaced so quickly by so much anti Russian hatred when the price offered by the EU was right.

[toppstuff]

XJ Flyer said:

If Russia could forgive the Germans enough to now buy German trucks and cars,and Israel can forgive Germany enough to not now nuke the place,I'm sure that Russia's neighbours could have just forgot all their past differences with the Russians.Although it seems strange how all that slavic unity that kicked off WW1 was replaced so quickly by so much anti Russian hatred when the price offered by the EU was right.

Oh my.

New levels of idiocy. Well done.

[cloggy]

XJ Flyer said:

If Russia could forgive the Germans enough to now buy German trucks and cars,and Israel can forgive Germany enough to not now nuke the place,I'm sure that Russia's neighbours could have just forgot all their past differences with the Russians.Although it seems strange how all that slavic unity that kicked off WW1 was replaced so quickly by so much anti Russian hatred when the price offered by the EU was right.

Horse st.

[greygoose]

XJ Flyer said:

If Russia could forgive the Germans enough to now buy German trucks and cars.

Nothing to do with German cars and trucks being far better than the outdated rubbish the Russian manufacturers were making?