Angela Merkel

[Sylvaforever]

Murph7355 said:

jjlynn27 said:

Murph7355 said:

That sort of argument loses effectiveness the more people those parties attract.

Being that dismissive is exactly what ends up with Trump, Brexit etc.

Not at all, what drives people to Trump, Brexit, etc. is desperation to blame someone else. It's presumably easier to say 'see, they say it's the immigrants/darkies fault for me being stuck in a dead-end job on a minimum wage' than 'fk, while others were studying hard, and devising plans how to get where they want to be in life, I was drinking myself to oblivion and now I'm stuck in a dead-end job on a minimum wage'.

The rather simple fact is; for such people, not Brexit, not Le Pen, nor Trump will make life better. They'll still reminisce about the good old times while finding new reasons for being an abject, perpetual failure.

Before sensitive flowers start, no, I don't think that this applies to all Brexit or Trump voters.

The thing is jj, the more people that are attracted to vote that way, the less of them are likely to be stuck in "dead end jobs on minimum wage". Unless you have demographic data to prove that the only people voting that way are in "dead end jobs on minimum wage". Which you do not.

So if you'd read and understood what I actually wrote, you may not have been so quick to dismiss it. Then again, I doubt that very much as the real problem with people who share your line of thinking is that they are very quick to dismiss anything that doesn't fit their point of view.

These parties/choices are not miraculously unearthing some previously non-voting "dead end job on minimum wage" individuals. They are attracting votes from other parties. And if they are not people on "dead end jobs on minimum wage", what excuse do you want to give to that movement?

Sticking your head in the sand, or perhaps more realistically up your own arse, is not the answer.

Merkel potentially gets it. She knows she made heavy mistakes on immigration (for example) and knows she needs to do something about that. However, that won't be the only thing. And the real question is how compatible are the solutions with her vision for the EU?

Personally I don't see them being compatible at all. So I can only see a couple of options...

1) Keep kicking it into the long grass and hope it all goes away/someone else takes it on after she retires. I don't see that working without parties like the AFD gaining more ground (a la UKIP) or (possibly more likely) one of the other parties seizing the opportunity and offering something different without AFD's baggage.

2) Change some fundamental views on key cornerstones of the EU (immigration policies, FoM etc). Probably good for everyone concerned. But not a path the key players have ever accepted to date.


Of course she may be able to reconcile the views and win people back. If she manages that, my cap will be doffed. But she has no chance. She will take option (1). I wouldn't think she'll want more than this one other term anyway.

Quoted for posterity

"Before sensitive flowers start, no, I don't think that this applies to all Brexit or Trump voters."

[///ajd]

Interesting to see how many are tangibly excited about the success of AfD.

All the cries of "its the liberals fault" are a way it seems to shout "hurray" without actually actively supporting them. Or so the poster think - truth is such sentiment clearly suggests that deep down you think its a good thing that the AfF have done well. How else can you explain your posting in the manner of some above?

JOB has it.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien...

[amusingduck]

///ajd said:

Interesting to see how many are tangibly excited about the success of AfD.

All the cries of "its the liberals fault" are a way it seems to shout "hurray" without actually actively supporting them. Or so the poster think - truth is such sentiment clearly suggests that deep down you think its a good thing that the AfF have done well. How else can you explain your posting in the manner of some above?

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that AfD's performance is a good thing, on the whole?

People are unhappy about the migrant crisis. AfD's performance reflects that. The other parties now have a clear message from the populus, and the opportunity to improve the situation in response.

[///ajd]

amusingduck said:

///ajd said:

Interesting to see how many are tangibly excited about the success of AfD.

All the cries of "its the liberals fault" are a way it seems to shout "hurray" without actually actively supporting them. Or so the poster think - truth is such sentiment clearly suggests that deep down you think its a good thing that the AfF have done well. How else can you explain your posting in the manner of some above?

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that AfD's performance is a good thing, on the whole?

People are unhappy about the migrant crisis. AfD's performance reflects that. The other parties now have a clear message from the populus, and the opportunity to improve the situation in response.

Well that depends on whether you think that growing popularity of a party that thinks "we have the right to proud of the accomplishments of German soldiers in two World Wars’." is a step in the right direction? I'd say no.

But I think you do stumble on the real driver for the glee expressed at their success by some here - its the belief that their success may lead to mainstream parties adopting anti-immigration policies, and hence a growing band or insular, nationalism thinking - reflecting I'd suggest their own desires.


--

(PS I'm very grateful for you giving me the opportunity to use the word glee where is most certainly does not mean schadenfreude )

[jjlynn27]

Murph7355 said:

jjlynn27 said:

...
And? You can have number of non-no-hopers double from 1 to 2 and number of no-hopers go from 10 to 30. So I'll ask again, and?
...

And eventually you get your arse handed to you.

Case in point - Brexit.

Your style of dismissive, ultra-arrogant attitude caused it you chump. People just like you ignoring the "no-hopers" (I sometimes sit and think your grasp of the language isn't great or you're simply trolling with some of the things you post). Weaned on the EU and unable to cope with not having it there for you.

And you will never be able to see it.

Enjoy your plan B. You're going to need it. I'd recommend getting at least up to plan D

It is probably my grasp of language. Why would you think that I got my 'arse handed to me'? Brexit will affect me less than, at guess, 98% of the population.

I know that you are trying to rewrite the reason for Brexit happening without any proof whatsoever bar you saying so. It was explained to you, a number of times, with quotes from people who financed / run campaign how and why they managed to pull things through.

You don't like those reasons so you are making up alternative reality. You talk about arrogance yet you are pretending to know better than people central to the campaign who invested their own money.

If it makes you feel any better to keep thinking that Brexit was not down to mostly 'zomg immigrants' factor, you do so, you can keep trying to invent reasons, despite the available evidence.

ETA: I can't type Engrish very goodly.

Edited by jjlynn27 on Thursday 28th September 19:15

[Not-The-Messiah]

///ajd said:

Well that depends on whether you think that growing popularity of a party that thinks "we have the right to proud of the accomplishments of German soldiers in two World Wars’." is a step in the right direction? I'd say no.

But I think you do stumble on the real driver for the glee expressed at their success by some here - its the belief that their success may lead to mainstream parties adopting anti-immigration policies, and hence a growing band or insular, nationalism thinking - reflecting I'd suggest their own desires.


--

(PS I'm very grateful for you giving me the opportunity to use the word glee where is most certainly does not mean schadenfreude )

Whats wrong with a certain level of nationalism, celebrating and protecting ones culture?

[///ajd]

Not-The-Messiah said:

///ajd said:

Well that depends on whether you think that growing popularity of a party that thinks "we have the right to proud of the accomplishments of German soldiers in two World Wars’." is a step in the right direction? I'd say no.

But I think you do stumble on the real driver for the glee expressed at their success by some here - its the belief that their success may lead to mainstream parties adopting anti-immigration policies, and hence a growing band or insular, nationalism thinking - reflecting I'd suggest their own desires.


--

(PS I'm very grateful for you giving me the opportunity to use the word glee where is most certainly does not mean schadenfreude )

Whats wrong with a certain level of nationalism, celebrating and protecting ones culture?

Nationalism: an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

Many would suggest any level of "superiority" towards others is fundamentally unhealthy.

[del mar]

///ajd said:

amusingduck said:

///ajd said:

Interesting to see how many are tangibly excited about the success of AfD.

All the cries of "its the liberals fault" are a way it seems to shout "hurray" without actually actively supporting them. Or so the poster think - truth is such sentiment clearly suggests that deep down you think its a good thing that the AfF have done well. How else can you explain your posting in the manner of some above?

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that AfD's performance is a good thing, on the whole?

People are unhappy about the migrant crisis. AfD's performance reflects that. The other parties now have a clear message from the populus, and the opportunity to improve the situation in response.

Well that depends on whether you think that growing popularity of a party that thinks "we have the right to proud of the accomplishments of German soldiers in two World Wars’." is a step in the right direction? I'd say no.

But I think you do stumble on the real driver for the glee expressed at their success by some here - its the belief that their success may lead to mainstream parties adopting anti-immigration policies, and hence a growing band or insular, nationalism thinking - reflecting I'd suggest their own desires.


--

(PS I'm very grateful for you giving me the opportunity to use the word glee where is most certainly does not mean schadenfreude )

I am suprised more weren't anti immigrant, i can't see that they will bring any benefit to Germany at all.

Is it wrong to object to that ?

[Not-The-Messiah]

///ajd said:

Not-The-Messiah said:

///ajd said:

Well that depends on whether you think that growing popularity of a party that thinks "we have the right to proud of the accomplishments of German soldiers in two World Wars’." is a step in the right direction? I'd say no.

But I think you do stumble on the real driver for the glee expressed at their success by some here - its the belief that their success may lead to mainstream parties adopting anti-immigration policies, and hence a growing band or insular, nationalism thinking - reflecting I'd suggest their own desires.


--

(PS I'm very grateful for you giving me the opportunity to use the word glee where is most certainly does not mean schadenfreude )

Whats wrong with a certain level of nationalism, celebrating and protecting ones culture?

Nationalism: an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

Many would suggest any level of "superiority" towards others is fundamentally unhealthy.

You don't think that one nation can be better than another?
I think the UK does things better and is superior in many ways to other nation I don't think thinking that is wrong. Or do you think that all nations are equal in things like morals, laws and in many other ways?

Edited by Not-The-Messiah on Thursday 28th September 19:34

[B'stard Child]

///ajd said:

Nationalism: an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

Many would suggest any level of "superiority" towards others is fundamentally unhealthy.

Selection of the meaning that suits your viewpoint best

patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
"an early consciousness of nationalism and pride"
synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism, nationality; More
xenophobia, chauvinism, jingoism, flag-waving, isolationism;
ethnocentrism, ethnocentricity
"the resurgence of nationalism in Europe and in other parts of the world"

an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.
plural noun: nationalisms
"playing with right-wing nationalism"

advocacy of political independence for a particular country.
"Scottish nationalism"

But still if you are happy with the "multicultural soup" or "one EU" aim of the EU and are happy for countries in Europe to lose their identity and cultures I can see why you would pick that particular definition

[///ajd]

B'stard Child said:

Selection of the meaning that suits your viewpoint best

patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
"an early consciousness of nationalism and pride"
synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism, nationality; More
[b]xenophobia, chauvinism, jingoism, flag-waving, isolationism;
ethnocentrism, ethnocentricity[/b]
"the resurgence of nationalism in Europe and in other parts of the world"

an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.
plural noun: nationalisms
"playing with right-wing nationalism"

advocacy of political independence for a particular country.
"Scottish nationalism"

But still if you are happy with the "multicultural soup" or "one EU" aim of the EU and are happy for countries in Europe to lose their identity and cultures I can see why you would pick that particular definition

I just picked up on the superiority, but plenty of the other bits in bold could be argued to be a bit unattractive too though, no? Or are you OK with xenophobia & jingoism?

The ScotRef was laced with the rhetoric of superiority over Wastemonster (aka "the bastid English") by a good chunk of the 45% including Mr Salmond. Calling it civic nationalism didn't really hide the underlying sentiment Salmond was so keen to stoke. Still, a healthy majority kicked it into touch, and well done Scotland for having the moral fortitude to do so.

[B'stard Child]

///ajd said:

B'stard Child said:

Selection of the meaning that suits your viewpoint best

patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
"an early consciousness of nationalism and pride"
synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism, nationality; More
[b]xenophobia, chauvinism, jingoism, flag-waving, isolationism;
ethnocentrism, ethnocentricity[/b]
"the resurgence of nationalism in Europe and in other parts of the world"

an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.
plural noun: nationalisms
"playing with right-wing nationalism"

advocacy of political independence for a particular country.
"Scottish nationalism"

But still if you are happy with the "multicultural soup" or "one EU" aim of the EU and are happy for countries in Europe to lose their identity and cultures I can see why you would pick that particular definition

I just picked up on the superiority, but plenty of the other bits in bold could be argued to be a bit unattractive too though, no? Or are you OK with xenophobia & jingoism?

The ScotRef was laced with the rhetoric of superiority over Wastemonster (aka "the bastid English") by a good chunk of the 45% including Mr Salmond. Calling it civic nationalism didn't really hide the underlying sentiment Salmond was so keen to stoke. Still, a healthy majority kicked it into touch, and well done Scotland for having the moral fortitude to do so.

So OK with multicultural soup and no individual country identity then

I refuse to debate xenophobia with you because it ends the same way everytime

jingoism - I'll come back to you when I've worked out what it means (fick leave vota see)

[johnxjsc1985]

it seems their is a collective deep breath taken by Germany every time somebody mentions voting for a right wing party it is almost
Basil Fawltyesque. Whilst May is deemed a liability whilst securing 45% Merkel got 32% and there is little comment.
Her authority whilst diminished doesn't seem to be threatened. Its a great shame we only have two real choices to form a Government in this Country.

[Shay HTFC]

///ajd said:

Well that depends on whether you think that growing popularity of a party that thinks "we have the right to proud of the accomplishments of German soldiers in two World Wars’." is a step in the right direction? I'd say no.

My grandfather was a German soldier and I'm especially proud of him. He was a strong man, loyal, dependable, dignified, charming, funny and basically everything you would expect of a great guy!

He fought for his country. End of. Maybe he fell for the propaganda, maybe he actively avoided confronting various aspects of what was going on - I don't know, I never got to ask him, but to brand all 'nazis' under the same brush as Hitler and Goebbels is greatly unfair to be honest!

johnxjsc1985 said:

it seems their is a collective deep breath taken by Germany every time somebody mentions voting for a right wing party it is almost Basil Fawltyesque

My mother still comes under great anxiety everytime the war is brought up. Germans suffer a collective anxiety about whether their culture is fundamentally 'evil' in some regards etc and how to handle immigration etc, almost trying to make up for their past crimes. It's a real shame to be honest because it's a great place and the average German should not have to still suffer because of atrocities from more than half a century ago that were orchestrated by a tiny minority.

Maybe the Afd are a response to the collective limp-wristedness that Germany has presented to the world and many are ready to stop seeing themselves as the bad guys that have to pander to everyone!

[johnxjsc1985]

Shay HTFC said:

My mother still comes under great anxiety everytime the war is brought up. Germans suffer a collective anxiety about whether their culture is fundamentally 'evil' in some regards etc and how to handle immigration etc, almost trying to make up for their past crimes. It's a real shame to be honest because it's a great place and the average German should not have to still suffer because of atrocities from more than half a century ago that were orchestrated by a tiny minority.

Maybe the Afd are a response to the collective limp-wristedness that Germany has presented to the world and many are ready to stop seeing themselves as the bad guys that have to pander to everyone!

without going into why the Far right gained so much influence during the 1930's in Germany it should be clear to most people that Soldiers who find themselves on the front line are largely there because they didn't have much of an alternative. My father did 6 full years 1939-45 I never heard him say anything bad about the front line German soldiers.

[Murph7355]

jjlynn27 said:

It is probably my grasp of language. Why would you think that I got my 'arse handed to me'? Brexit will affect me less than, at guess, 98% of the population.

I know that you are trying to rewrite the reason for Brexit happening without any proof whatsoever bar you saying so. It was explained to you, a number of times, with quotes from people who financed / run campaign how and why they managed to pull things through.

You don't like those reasons so you are making up alternative reality. You talk about arrogance yet you are pretending to know better than people central to the campaign who invested their own money.

If it makes you feel any better to keep thinking that Brexit was not down to mostly 'zomg immigrants' factor, you do so, you can keep trying to invent reasons, despite the available evidence.

ETA: I can't type Engrish very goodly.

I wasn't referring to "you" specifically. I was referring to those who bury their heads in the sand thinking the only reason others are voting a different way to them is because they are inferior in some way. "no hopers on minimum wage" for example.

I couldn't give a monkey's how much money Banks spent on polling/campaigning. You evidently feel that the amount of money spent was material to the outcome. I do not...and we could debate for days on what was spent and from where. Key thing is, did it matter?

As for people's reasons for voting, depends again whose poll you believe (if any poll is credible bearing in mind what happened). As you know, Ashcroft's poll notes that Sovereignty demolished immigration as the main reason.

And so what if immigration was the reason anyway? You like to insinuate this makes people racist. I don't. I prefer to try to understand why people think these things. And it would be good if our government started to do the same and to address the root causes.

So no, I am not trying to rewrite history. I just choose to listen to different figures to you, and don't happen to think that the amount someone spends is material to an outcome.

As for proof...I voted Leave. One fact I can give you is that immigration wasn't in the top three for me. Sovereignty was. As was not wanting to perpetuate yet another layer of incompetent politicians add zero discernible value to my life. The ludicrous sums of money involved for the return was third. I accept you feel differently on these things, in part for very obvious reasons. But the other fact of this whole shebang is that regardless of the reasons behind the votes, Remain lost, and Leave won. And unless the EU fundamentally changes direction, I am confident any referendum in this country would return the same result

[Not-The-Messiah]

johnxjsc1985 said:

Shay HTFC said:

My mother still comes under great anxiety everytime the war is brought up. Germans suffer a collective anxiety about whether their culture is fundamentally 'evil' in some regards etc and how to handle immigration etc, almost trying to make up for their past crimes. It's a real shame to be honest because it's a great place and the average German should not have to still suffer because of atrocities from more than half a century ago that were orchestrated by a tiny minority.

Maybe the Afd are a response to the collective limp-wristedness that Germany has presented to the world and many are ready to stop seeing themselves as the bad guys that have to pander to everyone!

without going into why the Far right gained so much influence during the 1930's in Germany it should be clear to most people that Soldiers who find themselves on the front line are largely there because they didn't have much of an alternative. My father did 6 full years 1939-45 I never heard him say anything bad about the front line German soldiers.

Don't be stupid didn't you two listen in your junior school history lessons?
We good them bad, that's basically the level of understanding of WW2 from many people.

The idea that somehow an entire nation became evil because of the actions and words of few truly evil individuals. Ignoring the causes and the reasons why people followed these people.

The lefts idea of learning from history=
We built a big pile of wood and some tt (Hitler)came along and through a match on it.
What are we doing?
Building a even bigger pile of wood ignore all the people saying we shouldn't be doing this and now just shout at and call names anyone who tries to pick a matchstick up. Sounds like a plan.

Edited by Not-The-Messiah on Thursday 28th September 22:40

[anonymous-user]

johnxjsc1985 said:

Shay HTFC said:

My mother still comes under great anxiety everytime the war is brought up. Germans suffer a collective anxiety about whether their culture is fundamentally 'evil' in some regards etc and how to handle immigration etc, almost trying to make up for their past crimes. It's a real shame to be honest because it's a great place and the average German should not have to still suffer because of atrocities from more than half a century ago that were orchestrated by a tiny minority.

Maybe the Afd are a response to the collective limp-wristedness that Germany has presented to the world and many are ready to stop seeing themselves as the bad guys that have to pander to everyone!

without going into why the Far right gained so much influence during the 1930's in Germany it should be clear to most people that Soldiers who find themselves on the front line are largely there because they didn't have much of an alternative. My father did 6 full years 1939-45 I never heard him say anything bad about the front line German soldiers.

You see this play out every time former soldier enemies meet years after war. Both sides understand that for the vast majority of soldiers, airmen and sailors they are doing their duty to their country and family.

There were very evil people who did unspeakable things, lots and lots of them in Germany during WW2, the society as whole also fell foul to a horrendous brain washing via very clever people and they paid a huge price for that.

One thing that came out of the post WW2 period for the Germans was an understanding that you have to educate people in civics, they probably understand more than anyone what effect politics can have on their future. It's why for the last period until very recently, people like Merkel have been able to run on a platform of being boring and not experimenting, being boring and not rocking the boat has been fine. The problem they are now starting to face is boring isn't cutting it anymore for those left behind.

It's worth noting that the AFD polled much higher in the former East Germany, I think in part because they didn't receive the same civics education provided in the former West Germany. They also didn't benefit from the same uplift in living standards because most of the wealth generation is still happening in the West. These two factors are playing a part in the West/East split seen in this election.

[oilbethere]

jsf said:

johnxjsc1985 said:

Shay HTFC said:

My mother still comes under great anxiety everytime the war is brought up. Germans suffer a collective anxiety about whether their culture is fundamentally 'evil' in some regards etc and how to handle immigration etc, almost trying to make up for their past crimes. It's a real shame to be honest because it's a great place and the average German should not have to still suffer because of atrocities from more than half a century ago that were orchestrated by a tiny minority.

Maybe the Afd are a response to the collective limp-wristedness that Germany has presented to the world and many are ready to stop seeing themselves as the bad guys that have to pander to everyone!

without going into why the Far right gained so much influence during the 1930's in Germany it should be clear to most people that Soldiers who find themselves on the front line are largely there because they didn't have much of an alternative. My father did 6 full years 1939-45 I never heard him say anything bad about the front line German soldiers.

You see this play out every time former soldier enemies meet years after war. Both sides understand that for the vast majority of soldiers, airmen and sailors they are doing their duty to their country and family.

There were very evil people who did unspeakable things, lots and lots of them in Germany during WW2, the society as whole also fell foul to a horrendous brain washing via very clever people and they paid a huge price for that.

One thing that came out of the post WW2 period for the Germans was an understanding that you have to educate people in civics, they probably understand more than anyone what effect politics can have on their future. It's why for the last period until very recently, people like Merkel have been able to run on a platform of being boring and not experimenting, being boring and not rocking the boat has been fine. The problem they are now starting to face is boring isn't cutting it anymore for those left behind.

It's worth noting that the AFD polled much higher in the former East Germany, I think in part because they didn't receive the same civics education provided in the former West Germany. They also didn't benefit from the same uplift in living standards because most of the wealth generation is still happening in the West. These two factors are playing a part in the West/East split seen in this election.

She's paying the price for the immigration crisis she created. Nothing to do with being boring.

[anonymous-user]

oilbethere said:

jsf said:

johnxjsc1985 said:

Shay HTFC said:

My mother still comes under great anxiety everytime the war is brought up. Germans suffer a collective anxiety about whether their culture is fundamentally 'evil' in some regards etc and how to handle immigration etc, almost trying to make up for their past crimes. It's a real shame to be honest because it's a great place and the average German should not have to still suffer because of atrocities from more than half a century ago that were orchestrated by a tiny minority.

Maybe the Afd are a response to the collective limp-wristedness that Germany has presented to the world and many are ready to stop seeing themselves as the bad guys that have to pander to everyone!

without going into why the Far right gained so much influence during the 1930's in Germany it should be clear to most people that Soldiers who find themselves on the front line are largely there because they didn't have much of an alternative. My father did 6 full years 1939-45 I never heard him say anything bad about the front line German soldiers.

You see this play out every time former soldier enemies meet years after war. Both sides understand that for the vast majority of soldiers, airmen and sailors they are doing their duty to their country and family.

There were very evil people who did unspeakable things, lots and lots of them in Germany during WW2, the society as whole also fell foul to a horrendous brain washing via very clever people and they paid a huge price for that.

One thing that came out of the post WW2 period for the Germans was an understanding that you have to educate people in civics, they probably understand more than anyone what effect politics can have on their future. It's why for the last period until very recently, people like Merkel have been able to run on a platform of being boring and not experimenting, being boring and not rocking the boat has been fine. The problem they are now starting to face is boring isn't cutting it anymore for those left behind.

It's worth noting that the AFD polled much higher in the former East Germany, I think in part because they didn't receive the same civics education provided in the former West Germany. They also didn't benefit from the same uplift in living standards because most of the wealth generation is still happening in the West. These two factors are playing a part in the West/East split seen in this election.

She's paying the price for the immigration crisis she created. Nothing to do with being boring.

I don't think you understood my comment re being boring.

The change in voting habit in Germany was not just because of the migrant crisis. It certainly played a role in how large the vote was, but I still expect the AFD would have broken through the 5% threshold without that and the two main parties would still have lost voter share to the other parties.