Incident Croydon tram

[scenario8]

saaby93 said:

To be fair , putting that 20kph max bend after a full speed straight with only one warning sign and no dire warning about the angle of the bend, could be regarded as a trap

I don’t think there’s much “fairness” about suggesting the presence of a trap at all. It’s a tram line negotiated by trams driven by tram drivers who are familiar with the route and trained and qualified specifically to navigate those trams on those routes. Every day. It’s nothing like barrelling along an unknown NSL road in your car and the “only” signage for a tight bend is an advisory reduced speed sign (partially obscured by overgrown foliage).

The signage may in hindsight prove to have been of a lower standard than required for the calibre of driver employed but that says much about the drivers to be honest.

[scenario8]

PositronicRay said:

Many companies would simply promote incompatance out of the danger zone.

Quoted purely for the mildly amusing misspelling in what otherwise should be quite a sobering thread.

[saaby93]

scenario8 said:

saaby93 said:

To be fair , putting that 20kph max bend after a full speed straight with only one warning sign and no dire warning about the angle of the bend, could be regarded as a trap

I don’t think there’s much “fairness” about suggesting the presence of a trap at all. It’s a tram line negotiated by trams driven by tram drivers who are familiar with the route and trained and qualified specifically to navigate those trams on those routes. Every day. It’s nothing like barrelling along an unknown NSL road in your car and the “only” signage for a tight bend is an advisory reduced speed sign (partially obscured by overgrown foliage).

The signage may in hindsight prove to have been of a lower standard than required for the calibre of driver employed but that says much about the drivers to be honest.

Wasnt it remarked that there were previous occurences of one side of similar trams lifting, i.e. that other drivers were caught out?

[scenario8]

saaby93 said:

scenario8 said:

saaby93 said:

To be fair , putting that 20kph max bend after a full speed straight with only one warning sign and no dire warning about the angle of the bend, could be regarded as a trap

I don’t think there’s much “fairness” about suggesting the presence of a trap at all. It’s a tram line negotiated by trams driven by tram drivers who are familiar with the route and trained and qualified specifically to navigate those trams on those routes. Every day. It’s nothing like barrelling along an unknown NSL road in your car and the “only” signage for a tight bend is an advisory reduced speed sign (partially obscured by overgrown foliage).

The signage may in hindsight prove to have been of a lower standard than required for the calibre of driver employed but that says much about the drivers to be honest.

Wasnt it remarked that there were previous occurences of one side of similar trams lifting, i.e. that other drivers were caught out?

Maybe. Astonishing isn’t it? Despite their training and familiarity with their equipment and their route there may have been previous instances where these professionals may have been unable to control their trams in a safe manner.

Meanwhile there are numerous confirmed and rumoured reports of drivers falling asleep at the wheel. That may or may not be a factor here. How about monitoring equipment within the cab to detect this and alert the driver? Not on your nelly shrieks the union. Now why might that be I wonder?

[SydneyBridge]

There are 17 miles of tram lines, every driver should know every inch like the back of their hand. I was working in Croydon that day, I have only ever got the tram between Croydon and Wimbledon and there certainly aren't many bends, let alone sharp corners

[saaby93]

for those that missed it here is the video
https://youtu.be/lhuogCAh6Pg?t=12m56s


Notice that you have to brake some distance before seeing the 20kph sign
if you brake when you see it youre too late

Hopefully the new speed restricting devices know that too

[turbomoped]

saaby93 said:

for those that missed it here is the video
https://youtu.be/lhuogCAh6Pg?t=12m56s


Notice that you have to brake some distance before seeing the 20kph sign
if you brake when you see it youre too late

Hopefully the new speed restricting devices know that too

Just makes you more mad looking at it. Plenty of scope to paint 100 yards of chevrons on the walls to indicate warning.
Its the usual ego trip where we are meant to trust the fearless daredevil driver and his abilities to react
cos they are the best of the best.
An industry crying out for automation and sackings.

[SydneyBridge]

A coach driver was jailed for 5 years for taking a corner on the motorway too fast and killing two

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_M4_motorway_c...

What is the difference?..

[saaby93]

SydneyBridge said:

A coach driver was jailed for 5 years for taking a corner on the motorway too fast and killing two

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_M4_motorway_c...

What is the difference?..

There were a sequence of (deliberate) errors there, in the end taking an advisory 40mph bend too fast, mind you many of those 40 advisories can cry wolf.

This was a tram that was supposed to otherwise travel at speed, failing to take a 12mph bend, relying on driver memory as the sign was too late.
Has anyone suggested that the tram driver made a series of mistakes leading up to it?

Edited by saaby93 on Tuesday 15th January 00:21

[Stedman]

So TPWS, basically. (Which trams aren't required to have by law, incidentally, IIRC)

[Stedman]

turbomoped said:

Just makes you more mad looking at it. Plenty of scope to paint 100 yards of chevrons on the walls to indicate warning.
Its the usual ego trip where we are meant to trust the fearless daredevil driver and his abilities to react
cos they are the best of the best.
An industry crying out for automation and sackings.

Yes, you're right, the driver did it for kicks. Let's tell the RAIB to down their tools because i've just found the biggest one.

[turbomoped]

Maybe its the boredom or the job that leads to lapses . They should work shorter shifts althought this means less pay.

[saaby93]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Have a look a the video above
The only way you'd get it right is by memory
The speed limit sign is too late, to be much use.

[Eng274]

A stepped speed reduction tied to a tram-borne protection system that applies the brakes when it detects overspeed at a specific point in advance of the speed restriction would certainly help to prevent derailments of this nature. It's worked pretty well on the big railway for a couple of decades.. Large reductions in line speed require driver acknowledgement to protect against brain farts/loss of concentration.

Edited by Eng274 on Thursday 17th January 12:04

Edited by Eng274 on Thursday 17th January 12:15

[PF62]

And the driver won't be prosecuted even though they killed seven and seriously injured fifty - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50212531

[oobster]

PF62 said:

And the driver won't be prosecuted even though they killed seven and seriously injured fifty - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50212531

Do you believe the driver should be prosecuted?

[PF62]

oobster said:

PF62 said:

And the driver won't be prosecuted even though they killed seven and seriously injured fifty - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50212531

Do you believe the driver should be prosecuted?

Yes, don't you?

[oobster]

PF62 said:

oobster said:

PF62 said:

And the driver won't be prosecuted even though they killed seven and seriously injured fifty - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50212531

Do you believe the driver should be prosecuted?

Yes, don't you?

Unsure. What would be the benefit? Is prosecution in the public interest? Will the relatives of those killed and injured feel justice has been done for their loved ones? I can't answer any of those questions, BUT would a thorough review of the safety systems existing and available to the train operators and implementation of additional measures so as to prevent future re-occurrence be a better outcome?

[untakenname]

Unions were against the countermeasures to make sure the tram drivers don't drift off even though the system has been standard for long distance truckers in other countries for years.

I don't see how the defence of "it is clear that this was an unintended and involuntary act" has any weight behind it when people die, if this was in a coach that was doing multiple times the speed limit and then crashed due to coming off the road killing multiple passengers it wouldn't wash not prosecuting the driver.

[poo at Paul's]

fking laughable, ‘insufficient evidence’.

When there is just no consequences for people who behave like tts even if they kill people, is It any wonder that they behave like tts?
Amazing