How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
Tuna said:
Certainly, we need to find the negotiators and political leaders who can face up to the task ahead.
This is a similar task to trying to find a bunch of mathematicians to make 2 + 2 = 5.Sure, a 'better" team could probably get a few minor advantages in the legal framework, but the simple fact is we are not 'bargaining from a position of strength" and never have been.......
Regardless of what you want from Brexit, that's just not an acceptable way to continue. I don't for one minute think there's a position of strength to be had - but I do know that the bulls
t that floats around Brexit is in a large part allowed to continue due to the fact that our representatives are incapable of being honest about what they are doing and why.There are no right or easy choices - it's all difficult choices and hard decisions, and that's been obvious from the day we got the Referendum result. Time we faced up to it.
The Dangerous Elk said:
p1stonhead said:
What does it mean then? What would no deal do for the biggest elephant in the room which is Ireland?
That is up to the EU, it is their red line not ours. We are happy with free trade/movement and it is not us talking about closed borders, terrorist uprisings and building border posts topped with machine guns to protect their protectionist super state in the making.
p1stonhead said:
amusingduck said:
essayer said:
90 days maximum stay in the EU per visit without a visa. Nice.
I wonder what kind of reaction we can expect from the dozens of people that will affect 
SpeckledJim said:
If an MP believes that Brexit should be reversed, shouldn’t they have stood for election in 2017 on that position? Instead of standing for a party promising the opposite?
Let’s be honest, if the Labour and Tory MPs who would like us to remain had stood for parties who agree with that policy, then they wouldn’t have won their seats at all.
To have stood for Conservative or Labour in 2017, won the job, and then to try to reverse Brexit is an act of deceit. This is by far the biggest issue of the day, not a minor point of disagreement over some trifle on Page 11 of the manifesto.
There will be millions of people that voted Conservative or Labour and had their candidate elected who would gladly see Brexit reversed. How do you square that?Let’s be honest, if the Labour and Tory MPs who would like us to remain had stood for parties who agree with that policy, then they wouldn’t have won their seats at all.
To have stood for Conservative or Labour in 2017, won the job, and then to try to reverse Brexit is an act of deceit. This is by far the biggest issue of the day, not a minor point of disagreement over some trifle on Page 11 of the manifesto.
Tuna said:
p1stonhead said:
amusingduck said:
essayer said:
90 days maximum stay in the EU per visit without a visa. Nice.
I wonder what kind of reaction we can expect from the dozens of people that will affect p1stonhead said:
amusingduck said:
essayer said:
90 days maximum stay in the EU per visit without a visa. Nice.
I wonder what kind of reaction we can expect from the dozens of people that will affect Ghibli said:
don'tbesilly said:
It's just me suggesting May is being untruthful is it?
May wouldn't allow her deal to go ahead on Tuesday, May said in the HoC it would be defeated, her words.
The deal May has now worked hard to make more acceptable to those who would have voted against it on the Tuesday is now worse than the one she had on Monday according to sources who know far more than you or I.
It is a guess yes, but based on May's own words on Monday in the HoC it is a fairly sound guess with some form of credibility.
But you can carry on.
We don’t know the result of the vote because it hasn’t happened yet.May wouldn't allow her deal to go ahead on Tuesday, May said in the HoC it would be defeated, her words.
The deal May has now worked hard to make more acceptable to those who would have voted against it on the Tuesday is now worse than the one she had on Monday according to sources who know far more than you or I.
It is a guess yes, but based on May's own words on Monday in the HoC it is a fairly sound guess with some form of credibility.
But you can carry on.
You believe may when she says there won’t be another referendum yet you don’t believe other things she says.
As things evolve things change just like her saying there wouldn’t be a general election.
You and PH team leaves predictions have been wrong so far, TM is still PM.
and brexit is a joke.
Writing what she has stated doesn't automatically make the writer a believer in what someone has both written/said.
Does the below convey that I believe what May said?
don'tbesilly said:
May has also said she won't ask for an extension to A50 go figure
Why would Brexit supporters demand a 2nd referendum?
Why would Brexit supporters demand a 2nd referendum?
Max_Torque said:
Tuna said:
Certainly, we need to find the negotiators and political leaders who can face up to the task ahead.
This is a similar task to trying to find a bunch of mathematicians to make 2 + 2 = 5.Sure, a 'better" team could probably get a few minor advantages in the legal framework, but the simple fact is we are not 'bargaining from a position of strength" and never have been.......
Predictably enough this hasn't produced great results in either case.
A position of strength doesn't necessarily mean they have to be entirely dependent and begging for any deal on any terms. The strength to walk away us enough. And indeed is the minimum prerequisite for getting any sort of deal at all. Without that it isn't really a deal at all, just a new set of conditions.
ash73 said:
Tuna said:
There are no right or easy choices - it's all difficult choices and hard decisions, and that's been obvious from the day we got the Referendum result. Time we faced up to it.
It feels like a game of chess where there are three or four moves and I don't like ANY of them. Very difficult to see a way out of this.I think May's deal is now dead, she needs to say so and put some serious thought into how to best use the time left. If she still thinks a deal is possible the EFTA option needs fleshing out. Otherwise, what are the (detailed) consequences of no deal, are we actually going to do it, if not do we cancel article 50, or do we delay it and do a second referendum.
I'm wondering if May might resign after this disasterous trip, it could not have gone any worse.
She couldnt answer. Parliament sent her for 'some' reason and she couldnt articulate it. Because no one knows. She ALREADY AGREED the deal she was there to talk about changing in some way.
An apprently she even once said 'Brexit Means Brexit' to them.
I mean....
p1stonhead said:
ash73 said:
Tuna said:
There are no right or easy choices - it's all difficult choices and hard decisions, and that's been obvious from the day we got the Referendum result. Time we faced up to it.
It feels like a game of chess where there are three or four moves and I don't like ANY of them. Very difficult to see a way out of this.I think May's deal is now dead, she needs to say so and put some serious thought into how to best use the time left. If she still thinks a deal is possible the EFTA option needs fleshing out. Otherwise, what are the (detailed) consequences of no deal, are we actually going to do it, if not do we cancel article 50, or do we delay it and do a second referendum.
I'm wondering if May might resign after this disasterous trip, it could not have gone any worse.
She couldnt answer. Parliament sent her for 'some' reason and she couldnt articulate it. Because no one knows. She ALREADY AGREED the deal she was there to talk about changing in some way.
An apprently she even once said 'Brexit Means Brexit' to them.
I mean....
May has acted to all intents and purposes on her own since she chose not to proceed with the vote, the Cabinet probably demanded it but they (Cabinet) have accepted collective responsibility.
One has to ask if May is forced to/offers to resign, where does that leave her cabinet?
It's about time the reality of 'the border' was discussed. The entire problem is one of blame apportionment should trouble once again break out and the escape route for the politicians should that happen. Nobody wants to be left taking blame for resurgence of terrorism - it's got sweet FA to do with trade.
If there is a WTO finish the questioon of a border is entirely for the EU and the Repuiblic. Neither of those want it, in fact will fight tooth and nail to avoid it, so they can come to a sensible agreement between them. It's a manufactured non-problem as a result of posturing. If there is no way out, a red line could be drawn from Dundalk Bay, east to limit of international waters, then south to Wexford, then south west to Fastnet. What they do between them on Republic Ireland land is for them to decide and be responsible for in every respect. Nowt to do with us. Exactly like the other borders on the Eastern borders of the EU.
If there is a WTO finish the questioon of a border is entirely for the EU and the Repuiblic. Neither of those want it, in fact will fight tooth and nail to avoid it, so they can come to a sensible agreement between them. It's a manufactured non-problem as a result of posturing. If there is no way out, a red line could be drawn from Dundalk Bay, east to limit of international waters, then south to Wexford, then south west to Fastnet. What they do between them on Republic Ireland land is for them to decide and be responsible for in every respect. Nowt to do with us. Exactly like the other borders on the Eastern borders of the EU.
ash73 said:
I'm wondering if May might resign after this disasterous trip, it could not have gone any worse.
What else has she to offer now?. The ERG want her gone the DUP will not support her Labour smell an Election just resign get a new mandate from the people so campaign on leave or remain and just get this done. Oh and elect a new Conservative leader for the non ERG lot who may as well split.At a lower level appears to be a row between BBC Sports correspondents. Cricket commentator Aggers has reminded Lineker that his BBC contract requires him to keep his political views to himself and he should stick to football.
Lineker responds with a go forth and multiply and it's only because you don't agree with me so it doesn't count, then fires one across the bows of both Peter Shilton and Chris Waddle telling both of them to stick to football.
Tell you what Mr Lineker, if as you declare Brexit is more important to you than football you'll be resigning from Match of the Day then and applying for Brillo's job.
Lineker responds with a go forth and multiply and it's only because you don't agree with me so it doesn't count, then fires one across the bows of both Peter Shilton and Chris Waddle telling both of them to stick to football.
Tell you what Mr Lineker, if as you declare Brexit is more important to you than football you'll be resigning from Match of the Day then and applying for Brillo's job.
don'tbesilly said:
p1stonhead said:
ash73 said:
Tuna said:
There are no right or easy choices - it's all difficult choices and hard decisions, and that's been obvious from the day we got the Referendum result. Time we faced up to it.
It feels like a game of chess where there are three or four moves and I don't like ANY of them. Very difficult to see a way out of this.I think May's deal is now dead, she needs to say so and put some serious thought into how to best use the time left. If she still thinks a deal is possible the EFTA option needs fleshing out. Otherwise, what are the (detailed) consequences of no deal, are we actually going to do it, if not do we cancel article 50, or do we delay it and do a second referendum.
I'm wondering if May might resign after this disasterous trip, it could not have gone any worse.
She couldnt answer. Parliament sent her for 'some' reason and she couldnt articulate it. Because no one knows. She ALREADY AGREED the deal she was there to talk about changing in some way.
An apprently she even once said 'Brexit Means Brexit' to them.
I mean....
May has acted to all intents and purposes on her own since she chose not to proceed with the vote, the Cabinet probably demanded it but they (Cabinet) have accepted collective responsibility.
One has to ask if May is forced to/offers to resign, where does that leave her cabinet?
But she still couldn’t actually articulate why she was actually there.
I don’t see how she can continue now either despite the vote this week.
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