Boris Johnson- Prime Minister

[Nickgnome]

The3rdDukeofB said:

Nickgnome said:

stongle said:

Nickgnome said:

I accept that real wage growth has been about 1.8% this year, which is obviously good news. However in real terms the average worker is still worse off than they were over a decade ago.

So,

a) it's not Jackanory.
2) wage inflation is outstripping inflation

We've also just overshot the BoE inflation target of 2% (just recording 2.1%).

The last 10 years is a product of using MP to replace wage inflation and outdated economic thinking. Its put the Eurozone into a debt trap, and created zombie companies. You've reinforced the arguement for BREXIT.

It may be your opinion on Brexit. It is not mine.

And this is the rub. You have an Opinion.
Someone has given facts.


How is your Opinion more valid than facts. You are basing your opinion and sharing your views on what you think could happen, Strongle has given facts of what has happened.

Yet - you argue your version as it suits your position on Brexit from Day one.

The Country is equally blinkered - on both the Leave and the remain side I add. No One is changing their mind. Entrenched in their original position and will defend it to the end. Largely this is down to the human pysche that does allow with ease anyone to admit they are wrong.

This entrenched position holding by remain regardless of the facts laid out, and based purely on the hypothetical 'could happen' is utterly scuppering the process, the negotiation and any progress, positivity and reinforces the veciforous divide.


To simply retort to facts with 'It is not my opinion' really hampers the country on the whole.

The poster gave facts on inflation and wage increases as did I in relation to the real wage position.

There is no disagreement over those facts.

I argue that Brexit will damage us because i spent my life in a business which became extremely succesful, so I would argue that our judgement and decision making in running that was pretty good and certainly better than much of our competion.

The discussions I've had with competitors and associated companies lead me to believe their position is very little different to my own.

I know the total turnover of these companies is only a few £bn but they employee large numbers of people.

So what facts would you like to add to substantate your opinion?

[John145]

Nickgnome said:

You will need to define 'Filthy Rich' and give some examples because you sound like a guy with a huge chip on his shoulder for some obscure reason.

John145 said:

When one company gets "filthy rich" it's generally meaning that the profits being generated are dirty. For example through exploitation or practices that are not in good faith with the law.

If you have a number of companies competing properly and then suddenly one company sky rockets it is fair for people to ask why. Persimmon homes is a prime example. The root cause of their success is nothing of their own making but the CEO gets a huge bonus. When the layman sees this there's a degree of anger because when in your normal working life does someone hand you a life changing amount of money for doing nothing other than the day job?

Profit is one part of a business, not it's sole purpose. Just watch Poldark if you need examples!

Yup answers your question.

Another example of filthy rich could be Amazon that demands delivery drivers work as contractors but also they have to hire and maintain Amazon's vans!

The chip on the shoulder is just deflection to avoid looking at unsavoury practices and experiences.

[Nickgnome]

John145 said:

Nickgnome said:

You will need to define 'Filthy Rich' and give some examples because you sound like a guy with a huge chip on his shoulder for some obscure reason.

John145 said:

When one company gets "filthy rich" it's generally meaning that the profits being generated are dirty. For example through exploitation or practices that are not in good faith with the law.

If you have a number of companies competing properly and then suddenly one company sky rockets it is fair for people to ask why. Persimmon homes is a prime example. The root cause of their success is nothing of their own making but the CEO gets a huge bonus. When the layman sees this there's a degree of anger because when in your normal working life does someone hand you a life changing amount of money for doing nothing other than the day job?

Profit is one part of a business, not it's sole purpose. Just watch Poldark if you need examples!

Yup answers your question.

Another example of filthy rich could be Amazon that demands delivery drivers work as contractors but also they have to hire and maintain Amazon's vans!

The chip on the shoulder is just deflection to avoid looking at unsavoury practices and experiences.

As far as I know Persimmon and Amazon have done nothing illegal. There has been much posted by Brexit supporters here that business has to suffer over burdensome regulation including labour employment laws.

Do you think after we leave the Eu, our government will tighten those regulations to ensure all workers are much better protected or relax them.

Everything I’ve heard to date from leave supporting politicians is more likely to indicate the latter.

[Digga]

Nickgnome said:

As far as I know Persimmon and Amazon have done nothing illegal. There has been much posted by Brexit supporters here that business has to suffer over burdensome regulation including labour employment laws.

Very large firms have economies of scale that can enable them to side-step a lot of employment issues.

If you have a large enough workforce, you can afford not to employ too many of your workers on full time contracts (thereby avoiding many pesky regulations and costs, whilst also retaining the flexibility you want) because the overhead of recruiting an churning workforce is adequately covered and more than compensated for by cost and flexibility advantages.

Lots of firms are careful not to exceed the vaguely accepted maximum weekly hour limit which is deemed to be full time. Zero hours contracts allow huge flexibility on behalf of the employer, because they can cancel hours/shifts at very short notice, but because they catch a huge pool of potential labour (people generally always keen for more hours) they can cover absences and shortages with ease.

With zero hours, the obligations for paid leave, workplace pensions and a great many other hurdles are greatly reduced.

[John145]

Nickgnome said:

As far as I know Persimmon and Amazon have done nothing illegal. There has been much posted by Brexit supporters here that business has to suffer over burdensome regulation including labour employment laws.

Do you think after we leave the Eu, our government will tighten those regulations to ensure all workers are much better protected or relax them.

Everything I’ve heard to date from leave supporting politicians is more likely to indicate the latter.

Just because something is lawful does not make it right.

[Nickgnome]

Digga said:

Nickgnome said:

As far as I know Persimmon and Amazon have done nothing illegal. There has been much posted by Brexit supporters here that business has to suffer over burdensome regulation including labour employment laws.

Very large firms have economies of scale that can enable them to side-step a lot of employment issues.

If you have a large enough workforce, you can afford not to employ too many of your workers on full time contracts (thereby avoiding many pesky regulations and costs, whilst also retaining the flexibility you want) because the overhead of recruiting an churning workforce is adequately covered and more than compensated for by cost and flexibility advantages.

Lots of firms are careful not to exceed the vaguely accepted maximum weekly hour limit which is deemed to be full time. Zero hours contracts allow huge flexibility on behalf of the employer, because they can cancel hours/shifts at very short notice, but because they catch a huge pool of potential labour (people generally always keen for more hours) they can cover absences and shortages with ease.

With zero hours, the obligations for paid leave, workplace pensions and a great many other hurdles are greatly reduced.

None of your post has anything to do with the Eu. The UK government could legislate if it so chose.

[Nickgnome]

John145 said:

Nickgnome said:

As far as I know Persimmon and Amazon have done nothing illegal. There has been much posted by Brexit supporters here that business has to suffer over burdensome regulation including labour employment laws.

Do you think after we leave the Eu, our government will tighten those regulations to ensure all workers are much better protected or relax them.

Everything I’ve heard to date from leave supporting politicians is more likely to indicate the latter.

Just because something is lawful does not make it right.

I do not think I commented on the fairness or otherwise. I believe the Eu has tried to control the excesses of business. I do not see a UK government doing likewise.

[Otis Criblecoblis]

More important big red bus news for PH Remainers.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/14/j...
Any Remainers chuck this guy £25 ?

[anonymous-user]

Nickgnome said:

Digga said:

Nickgnome said:

As far as I know Persimmon and Amazon have done nothing illegal. There has been much posted by Brexit supporters here that business has to suffer over burdensome regulation including labour employment laws.

Very large firms have economies of scale that can enable them to side-step a lot of employment issues.

If you have a large enough workforce, you can afford not to employ too many of your workers on full time contracts (thereby avoiding many pesky regulations and costs, whilst also retaining the flexibility you want) because the overhead of recruiting an churning workforce is adequately covered and more than compensated for by cost and flexibility advantages.

Lots of firms are careful not to exceed the vaguely accepted maximum weekly hour limit which is deemed to be full time. Zero hours contracts allow huge flexibility on behalf of the employer, because they can cancel hours/shifts at very short notice, but because they catch a huge pool of potential labour (people generally always keen for more hours) they can cover absences and shortages with ease.

With zero hours, the obligations for paid leave, workplace pensions and a great many other hurdles are greatly reduced.

None of your post has anything to do with the Eu. The UK government could legislate if it so chose.

That is undeniably true.

The public gets what the public wants

We want convenience, we want price deflation, we want goods and services on demand, we want equities underpinning our pensions to perform, the list is endless.

To suddenly grow a conscience on such matters “because Europe” is somewhat disingenuous.

[John145]

Nickgnome said:

John145 said:

Nickgnome said:

As far as I know Persimmon and Amazon have done nothing illegal. There has been much posted by Brexit supporters here that business has to suffer over burdensome regulation including labour employment laws.

Do you think after we leave the Eu, our government will tighten those regulations to ensure all workers are much better protected or relax them.

Everything I’ve heard to date from leave supporting politicians is more likely to indicate the latter.

Just because something is lawful does not make it right.

I do not think I commented on the fairness or otherwise. I believe the Eu has tried to control the excesses of business. I do not see a UK government doing likewise.

Who do you think benefits more from the EU, the working man or the land/business owner?

The answer is of course obvious judging by the past 4 years of voting results in the UK.

[amusingduck]

Otis Criblecoblis said:

More important big red bus news for PH Remainers.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/14/j...
Any Remainers chuck this guy £25 ?

Guardian said:

“One is to appeal to the European courts because what the UK courts system is essentially saying is that Boris Johnson is above the law. What choice do we have?

Sounds like a balanced take on the matter

[hidetheelephants]

Dr Jekyll said:

hidetheelephants said:

Without reversing all the momentumisation of the party apparatus there's a better chance of Elvis making a comeback tour supported by Buddy Holly than a Blairite being elected leader of the Labour party. The Labour party is lost as a functioning part of the UK's political system; perhaps the Libdems can eventually grow to fill the breach, they are pretty soft, left just without the blairite "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" corporate amorality.

What's amoral about being relaxed about people getting rich?

The getting rich isn't the problem, the means of getting there is; the moral hazard of 'light touch' regulation should be clear given the GFC.

[TTwiggy]

John145 said:

Who do you think benefits more from the EU, the working man or the land/business owner?

The answer is of course obvious judging by the past 4 years of voting results in the UK.

The disparity in 'fairness' is nothing to do with the EU, it's just a product of western politics. Our politicians effectively 'gave up' in the 1970s and handed power to the technocrats in return for stability. Trying to wrest that power back 'because Brexit' isn't going to work.

[Tuna]

Nickgnome said:

I argue that Brexit will damage us because i spent my life in a business which became extremely succesful, so I would argue that our judgement and decision making in running that was pretty good and certainly better than much of our competion.

Are you familiar with the phrase 'optimising for local maxima'?

Your business did well in one environment. That doesn't mean businesses can't thrive or do even better in a different environment, does it?

You have a data point of one, and no control case to show that the reasons for success are what you think.

You know this - second business syndrome is not at all uncommon, where a powerfully built director leaves an extremely successful business, believing they can do it a second time and make even more money. How often do they fail? Or just bump along doing so-so? Knowing what factors actually made a business successful is a black art, not a science - or otherwise there wouldn't be whole shelves in the airport book shops devoted to "Empowering your Business" and "Creating the perfect startup".

It's like a Polynesian warrior lashing together trees to make a boat, "I have made the best boat in the world!"... and then a steam ship comes over the horizon.

[Nickgnome]

John145 said:

Nickgnome said:

John145 said:

Nickgnome said:

As far as I know Persimmon and Amazon have done nothing illegal. There has been much posted by Brexit supporters here that business has to suffer over burdensome regulation including labour employment laws.

Do you think after we leave the Eu, our government will tighten those regulations to ensure all workers are much better protected or relax them.

Everything I’ve heard to date from leave supporting politicians is more likely to indicate the latter.

Just because something is lawful does not make it right.

I do not think I commented on the fairness or otherwise. I believe the Eu has tried to control the excesses of business. I do not see a UK government doing likewise.

Who do you think benefits more from the EU, the working man or the land/business owner?

The answer is of course obvious judging by the past 4 years of voting results in the UK.

What connection has voting results with the business/labour relationship as legislated by the Eu.

If you think the Eu has legislated in favour of business to the detriment of workers, you will need to schedule those pieces of legislation.

In my opinion you are trying to make connections where none exist so I await your evidence.

Edited by Nickgnome on Wednesday 14th August 13:22

[Nickgnome]

Tuna said:

Nickgnome said:

I argue that Brexit will damage us because i spent my life in a business which became extremely succesful, so I would argue that our judgement and decision making in running that was pretty good and certainly better than much of our competion.

Are you familiar with the phrase 'optimising for local maxima'?

Your business did well in one environment. That doesn't mean businesses can't thrive or do even better in a different environment, does it?

You have a data point of one, and no control case to show that the reasons for success are what you think.

You know this - second business syndrome is not at all uncommon, where a powerfully built director leaves an extremely successful business, believing they can do it a second time and make even more money. How often do they fail? Or just bump along doing so-so? Knowing what factors actually made a business successful is a black art, not a science - or otherwise there wouldn't be whole shelves in the airport book shops devoted to "Empowering your Business" and "Creating the perfect startup".

It's like a Polynesian warrior lashing together trees to make a boat, "I have made the best boat in the world!"... and then a steam ship comes over the horizon.

I didn’t know anyone could say so little in so many words.

[anonymous-user]

Nickgnome said:

Tuna said:

Nickgnome said:

I argue that Brexit will damage us because i spent my life in a business which became extremely succesful, so I would argue that our judgement and decision making in running that was pretty good and certainly better than much of our competion.

Are you familiar with the phrase 'optimising for local maxima'?

Your business did well in one environment. That doesn't mean businesses can't thrive or do even better in a different environment, does it?

You have a data point of one, and no control case to show that the reasons for success are what you think.

You know this - second business syndrome is not at all uncommon, where a powerfully built director leaves an extremely successful business, believing they can do it a second time and make even more money. How often do they fail? Or just bump along doing so-so? Knowing what factors actually made a business successful is a black art, not a science - or otherwise there wouldn't be whole shelves in the airport book shops devoted to "Empowering your Business" and "Creating the perfect startup".

It's like a Polynesian warrior lashing together trees to make a boat, "I have made the best boat in the world!"... and then a steam ship comes over the horizon.

I didn’t know anyone could say so little in so many words.

Indeed.

Quite the Labi Siffre

Later of course covered by .............

[Tuna]

Nickgnome said:

I didn’t know anyone could say so little in so many words.

Great response.

Out of interest, how did your second business go?

[oyster]

The3rdDukeofB said:

Nickgnome said:

stongle said:

Nickgnome said:

I accept that real wage growth has been about 1.8% this year, which is obviously good news. However in real terms the average worker is still worse off than they were over a decade ago.

So,

a) it's not Jackanory.
2) wage inflation is outstripping inflation

We've also just overshot the BoE inflation target of 2% (just recording 2.1%).

The last 10 years is a product of using MP to replace wage inflation and outdated economic thinking. Its put the Eurozone into a debt trap, and created zombie companies. You've reinforced the arguement for BREXIT.

It may be your opinion on Brexit. It is not mine.

And this is the rub. You have an Opinion.
Someone has given facts.


How is your Opinion more valid than facts. You are basing your opinion and sharing your views on what you think could happen, Strongle has given facts of what has happened.

Yet - you argue your version as it suits your position on Brexit from Day one.

The Country is equally blinkered - on both the Leave and the remain side I add. No One is changing their mind. Entrenched in their original position and will defend it to the end. Largely this is down to the human pysche that does allow with ease anyone to admit they are wrong.

This entrenched position holding by remain regardless of the facts laid out, and based purely on the hypothetical 'could happen' is utterly scuppering the process, the negotiation and any progress, positivity and reinforces the veciforous divide.


To simply retort to facts with 'It is not my opinion' really hampers the country on the whole.

The bit I've put in bold is not at all fact, but merely opinion. Whether it's right or wrong is debatable. But it's an opinion still.

[Robertj21a]

Otis Criblecoblis said:

More important big red bus news for PH Remainers.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/14/j...
Any Remainers chuck this guy £25 ?

Yes, I expect many Remainers threw away money to support one of their sulking and frothing companions. How to throw good money after bad. Just as well that most Remainers appear to have more money than common sense.