Discussion
jsf said:
I don't think you understood my comment re being boring.
The change in voting habit in Germany was not just because of the migrant crisis. It certainly played a role in how large the vote was, but I still expect the AFD would have broken through the 5% threshold without that and the two main parties would still have lost voter share to the other parties.
Yes fair point I agree with that.The change in voting habit in Germany was not just because of the migrant crisis. It certainly played a role in how large the vote was, but I still expect the AFD would have broken through the 5% threshold without that and the two main parties would still have lost voter share to the other parties.
Murph7355 said:
jjlynn27 said:
It is probably my grasp of language. Why would you think that I got my 'arse handed to me'? Brexit will affect me less than, at guess, 98% of the population.
I know that you are trying to rewrite the reason for Brexit happening without any proof whatsoever bar you saying so. It was explained to you, a number of times, with quotes from people who financed / run campaign how and why they managed to pull things through.
You don't like those reasons so you are making up alternative reality. You talk about arrogance yet you are pretending to know better than people central to the campaign who invested their own money.
If it makes you feel any better to keep thinking that Brexit was not down to mostly 'zomg immigrants' factor, you do so, you can keep trying to invent reasons, despite the available evidence.
ETA: I can't type Engrish very goodly.
I wasn't referring to "you" specifically. I was referring to those who bury their heads in the sand thinking the only reason others are voting a different way to them is because they are inferior in some way. "no hopers on minimum wage" for example.I know that you are trying to rewrite the reason for Brexit happening without any proof whatsoever bar you saying so. It was explained to you, a number of times, with quotes from people who financed / run campaign how and why they managed to pull things through.
You don't like those reasons so you are making up alternative reality. You talk about arrogance yet you are pretending to know better than people central to the campaign who invested their own money.
If it makes you feel any better to keep thinking that Brexit was not down to mostly 'zomg immigrants' factor, you do so, you can keep trying to invent reasons, despite the available evidence.
ETA: I can't type Engrish very goodly.
I couldn't give a monkey's how much money Banks spent on polling/campaigning. You evidently feel that the amount of money spent was material to the outcome. I do not...and we could debate for days on what was spent and from where. Key thing is, did it matter?
As for people's reasons for voting, depends again whose poll you believe (if any poll is credible bearing in mind what happened). As you know, Ashcroft's poll notes that Sovereignty demolished immigration as the main reason.
And so what if immigration was the reason anyway? You like to insinuate this makes people racist. I don't. I prefer to try to understand why people think these things. And it would be good if our government started to do the same and to address the root causes.
So no, I am not trying to rewrite history. I just choose to listen to different figures to you, and don't happen to think that the amount someone spends is material to an outcome.
As for proof...I voted Leave. One fact I can give you is that immigration wasn't in the top three for me. Sovereignty was. As was not wanting to perpetuate yet another layer of incompetent politicians add zero discernible value to my life. The ludicrous sums of money involved for the return was third. I accept you feel differently on these things, in part for very obvious reasons. But the other fact of this whole shebang is that regardless of the reasons behind the votes, Remain lost, and Leave won. And unless the EU fundamentally changes direction, I am confident any referendum in this country would return the same result
[quote=jjlynn27]
It is probably my grasp of language. Why would you think that I got my 'arse handed to me'? Brexit will affect me less than, at guess, 98% of the population. to the campaign who invested their own money.[//quote]Which explains why you cannot and will not understand the vote.
Moreover, I'd say one has to be British to understand the vote for Brexit; you might be first generation Indian British, third generation Pakistani, Italian British, or Spanish, whatever, but if you are not and do not consider yourself British you won't fully understand.
As for the Eurovision, you only had to see what dross got promoted ahead of the U.K. Efforts to understand just how badly the cards are stacked against us in the EU.
It is probably my grasp of language. Why would you think that I got my 'arse handed to me'? Brexit will affect me less than, at guess, 98% of the population. to the campaign who invested their own money.[//quote]Which explains why you cannot and will not understand the vote.
Moreover, I'd say one has to be British to understand the vote for Brexit; you might be first generation Indian British, third generation Pakistani, Italian British, or Spanish, whatever, but if you are not and do not consider yourself British you won't fully understand.
As for the Eurovision, you only had to see what dross got promoted ahead of the U.K. Efforts to understand just how badly the cards are stacked against us in the EU.
Murph7355 said:
I wasn't referring to "you" specifically. I was referring to those who bury their heads in the sand thinking the only reason others are voting a different way to them is because they are inferior in some way. "no hopers on minimum wage" for example.
I couldn't give a monkey's how much money Banks spent on polling/campaigning. You evidently feel that the amount of money spent was material to the outcome. I do not...and we could debate for days on what was spent and from where. Key thing is, did it matter?
As for people's reasons for voting, depends again whose poll you believe (if any poll is credible bearing in mind what happened). As you know, Ashcroft's poll notes that Sovereignty demolished immigration as the main reason.
And so what if immigration was the reason anyway? You like to insinuate this makes people racist. I don't. I prefer to try to understand why people think these things. And it would be good if our government started to do the same and to address the root causes.
So no, I am not trying to rewrite history. I just choose to listen to different figures to you, and don't happen to think that the amount someone spends is material to an outcome.
As for proof...I voted Leave. One fact I can give you is that immigration wasn't in the top three for me. Sovereignty was. As was not wanting to perpetuate yet another layer of incompetent politicians add zero discernible value to my life. The ludicrous sums of money involved for the return was third. I accept you feel differently on these things, in part for very obvious reasons. But the other fact of this whole shebang is that regardless of the reasons behind the votes, Remain lost, and Leave won. And unless the EU fundamentally changes direction, I am confident any referendum in this country would return the same result
Let me give you a sincere +1 for that. Good common sense and sums up my own views very well.I couldn't give a monkey's how much money Banks spent on polling/campaigning. You evidently feel that the amount of money spent was material to the outcome. I do not...and we could debate for days on what was spent and from where. Key thing is, did it matter?
As for people's reasons for voting, depends again whose poll you believe (if any poll is credible bearing in mind what happened). As you know, Ashcroft's poll notes that Sovereignty demolished immigration as the main reason.
And so what if immigration was the reason anyway? You like to insinuate this makes people racist. I don't. I prefer to try to understand why people think these things. And it would be good if our government started to do the same and to address the root causes.
So no, I am not trying to rewrite history. I just choose to listen to different figures to you, and don't happen to think that the amount someone spends is material to an outcome.
As for proof...I voted Leave. One fact I can give you is that immigration wasn't in the top three for me. Sovereignty was. As was not wanting to perpetuate yet another layer of incompetent politicians add zero discernible value to my life. The ludicrous sums of money involved for the return was third. I accept you feel differently on these things, in part for very obvious reasons. But the other fact of this whole shebang is that regardless of the reasons behind the votes, Remain lost, and Leave won. And unless the EU fundamentally changes direction, I am confident any referendum in this country would return the same result
You keep misrepresenting what I said. Only you know why you do that.
Since you like Ashcroft poll, i'll leave you with this;
and more importantly;
Murph7355 said:
I wasn't referring to "you" specifically. I was referring to those who bury their heads in the sand thinking the only reason others are voting a different way to them is because they are inferior in some way. "no hopers on minimum wage" for example.
Majority of C2DE did vote for Brexit. Take whatever you want out of that. Please show any examples where someone said that 'the only reason others are voting a different way to them is that they are inferior in some way'. I doubt that you are going to do that.Murph7355 said:
I couldn't give a monkey's how much money Banks spent on polling/campaigning. You evidently feel that the amount of money spent was material to the outcome. I do not...and we could debate for days on what was spent and from where. Key thing is, did it matter?
Nobody is asking you to give a monkey. It was explained to you why the money he spent matters. He bought research, and according to him it was 'down to the immigration, by a country mile'. Yes, he knows better. Not sure why you keep disputing this, it's rather obvious that he'd know better than you. Murph7355 said:
As for people's reasons for voting, depends again whose poll you believe (if any poll is credible bearing in mind what happened). As you know, Ashcroft's poll notes that Sovereignty demolished immigration as the main reason.
And so what if immigration was the reason anyway? You like to insinuate this makes people racist. I don't. I prefer to try to understand why people think these things. And it would be good if our government started to do the same and to address the root causes.
Show me where i 'like to insinuate this make people racist'. Any conclusion as to 'why people think these things.'?And so what if immigration was the reason anyway? You like to insinuate this makes people racist. I don't. I prefer to try to understand why people think these things. And it would be good if our government started to do the same and to address the root causes.
Murph7355 said:
So no, I am not trying to rewrite history. I just choose to listen to different figures to you, and don't happen to think that the amount someone spends is material to an outcome.
As for proof...I voted Leave. One fact I can give you is that immigration wasn't in the top three for me. Sovereignty was. As was not wanting to perpetuate yet another layer of incompetent politicians add zero discernible value to my life. The ludicrous sums of money involved for the return was third. I accept you feel differently on these things, in part for very obvious reasons. But the other fact of this whole shebang is that regardless of the reasons behind the votes, Remain lost, and Leave won. And unless the EU fundamentally changes direction, I am confident any referendum in this country would return the same result
How and why you voted for is irrelevant. The plural of anecdote is not data. What are the 'very obvious' reasons? As for proof...I voted Leave. One fact I can give you is that immigration wasn't in the top three for me. Sovereignty was. As was not wanting to perpetuate yet another layer of incompetent politicians add zero discernible value to my life. The ludicrous sums of money involved for the return was third. I accept you feel differently on these things, in part for very obvious reasons. But the other fact of this whole shebang is that regardless of the reasons behind the votes, Remain lost, and Leave won. And unless the EU fundamentally changes direction, I am confident any referendum in this country would return the same result
Since you like Ashcroft poll, i'll leave you with this;
and more importantly;
Digga said:
jjlynn27 said:
It is probably my grasp of language. Why would you think that I got my 'arse handed to me'? Brexit will affect me less than, at guess, 98% of the population. to the campaign who invested their own money.
Which explains why you cannot and will not understand the vote.Moreover, I'd say one has to be British to understand the vote for Brexit; you might be first generation Indian British, third generation Pakistani, Italian British, or Spanish, whatever, but if you are not and do not consider yourself British you won't fully understand.
Digga said:
As for the Eurovision, you only had to see what dross got promoted ahead of the U.K. Efforts to understand just how badly the cards are stacked against us in the EU.
You are joking with this, right?jjlynn27 said:
Murph7355 said:
And so what if immigration was the reason anyway? You like to insinuate this makes people racist. I don't. I prefer to try to understand why people think these things. And it would be good if our government started to do the same and to address the root causes.
Show me where i 'like to insinuate this make people racist'. 
You posted an example just up there ^^^
jjlynn27 said:
If it makes you feel any better to keep thinking that Brexit was not down to mostly 'zomg immigrants' factor
It's your default response on this subject - even Patagonian fruit bats are aware of it. I wonder how much Juncker influenced Cameron's poor showing when he asked for little and got f
k all. This man is a real threat to relationships with the UK and the EU and he should STFU.
Now today May is actually seeing the head of the EU progress may well be forthcoming. Iwonder if May will ask Merkel how she got 12% less votes than her but is in a much stronger national position.
k all. This man is a real threat to relationships with the UK and the EU and he should STFU.Now today May is actually seeing the head of the EU progress may well be forthcoming. Iwonder if May will ask Merkel how she got 12% less votes than her but is in a much stronger national position.
Smiler. said:
jjlynn27 said:
Murph7355 said:
And so what if immigration was the reason anyway? You like to insinuate this makes people racist. I don't. I prefer to try to understand why people think these things. And it would be good if our government started to do the same and to address the root causes.
Show me where i 'like to insinuate this make people racist'. You posted an example just up there ^^^
jjlynn27 said:
If it makes you feel any better to keep thinking that Brexit was not down to mostly 'zomg immigrants' factor
It's your default response on this subject - even Patagonian fruit bats are aware of it. I did indeed post that. You'd have to be particularly thick, as thick as a damaged garden gnome, to equate that with an accusation of racism.
Given it's you it's hardly surprising.
Murph7355 said:
As for proof...I voted Leave. One fact I can give you is that immigration wasn't in the top three for me. Sovereignty was.
I feel terrible for those who voted based on this one, they must feel so misled in hindsight. Still, feelings are a powerful thing and often trump reality for many.jjlynn27 said:
...
Majority of C2DE did vote for Brexit. Take whatever you want out of that. Please show any examples where someone said that 'the only reason others are voting a different way to them is that they are inferior in some way'. I doubt that you are going to do that.
...
Go back and find your posts where you referred to no hopers on minimum wage if you want one example. There are others. Majority of C2DE did vote for Brexit. Take whatever you want out of that. Please show any examples where someone said that 'the only reason others are voting a different way to them is that they are inferior in some way'. I doubt that you are going to do that.
...
And as for the obvious reasons why you voted the way you did and post the way you do, change your job title in your profile if you don't want anyone drawing conclusions from it
The one thing where I suspect we will definitely agree is that the other is simply not worth engaging with. I don't understand your logic and dislike your condescending approach. I suspect you feel the same.
jjlynn27 said:
Smiler. said:
jjlynn27 said:
Murph7355 said:
And so what if immigration was the reason anyway? You like to insinuate this makes people racist. I don't. I prefer to try to understand why people think these things. And it would be good if our government started to do the same and to address the root causes.
Show me where i 'like to insinuate this make people racist'. You posted an example just up there ^^^
jjlynn27 said:
If it makes you feel any better to keep thinking that Brexit was not down to mostly 'zomg immigrants' factor
It's your default response on this subject - even Patagonian fruit bats are aware of it. I did indeed post that. You'd have to be particularly thick, as thick as a damaged garden gnome, to equate that with an accusation of racism.
Given it's you it's hardly surprising.
OK, here's another question for you: what did you wish to convey with your assertion?
Please enlighten this particular damaged garden gnome.
mx5nut said:
So laws and rules made elsewhere were put before parliament for scrutiny and somehow our sovereignty was intact - is this not a contradiction in terms? Tell me again how sovereign our courts are? How sovereign under EU "directives" we are? Tell me again the process for removing an EU directive (I'll give you a hint - there isn't one, only amendments) . Anyone who spends time reading up on the processes of the EU (plenty there on the Europa website - yes I do comment on there and ask questions of the EU and every now and then get a boiler plate non-answer) will soon understand that the "sovereignty" offered under the EU is of the "you can be sovereign as long as you do as we say" sovereignty. This was only going to get worse as the years went on - I voted out at the first opportunity I had (I was 1 in 1975) as the direction the EU wanted to go in was one I could not see a bright side to.
We did not do well in the EU, the hoops and processes for funding did not sit well with the UK psych when bidding for grants.
The continental approach of all things are forbidden except what is expressly allowed does not rest easily with UK approach that all things are allowed except that which is forbidden. We are better off out but as a close partner and the EU will be better off being able to ignore us when they see fit.
Murph7355 said:
jjlynn27 said:
...
Majority of C2DE did vote for Brexit. Take whatever you want out of that. Please show any examples where someone said that 'the only reason others are voting a different way to them is that they are inferior in some way'. I doubt that you are going to do that.
...
Go back and find your posts where you referred to no hopers on minimum wage if you want one example. There are others. Majority of C2DE did vote for Brexit. Take whatever you want out of that. Please show any examples where someone said that 'the only reason others are voting a different way to them is that they are inferior in some way'. I doubt that you are going to do that.
...
And as for the obvious reasons why you voted the way you did and post the way you do, change your job title in your profile if you don't want anyone drawing conclusions from it
The one thing where I suspect we will definitely agree is that the other is simply not worth engaging with. I don't understand your logic and dislike your condescending approach. I suspect you feel the same.
You also failed on 'racist thing' anything there, as the list of 'things that Murph made up' is getting rather long.
You make up a lot of things that you don't have any evidence for. You rely on echo chamber of NP&E to agree with you, while you do the same in return.
Jinx said:
So laws and rules made elsewhere were put before parliament for scrutiny and somehow our sovereignty was intact - is this not a contradiction in terms? Tell me again how sovereign our courts are? How sovereign under EU "directives" we are? Tell me again the process for removing an EU directive (I'll give you a hint - there isn't one, only amendments) .
Anyone who spends time reading up on the processes of the EU (plenty there on the Europa website - yes I do comment on there and ask questions of the EU and every now and then get a boiler plate non-answer) will soon understand that the "sovereignty" offered under the EU is of the "you can be sovereign as long as you do as we say" sovereignty. This was only going to get worse as the years went on - I voted out at the first opportunity I had (I was 1 in 1975) as the direction the EU wanted to go in was one I could not see a bright side to.
We did not do well in the EU, the hoops and processes for funding did not sit well with the UK psych when bidding for grants.
The continental approach of all things are forbidden except what is expressly allowed does not rest easily with UK approach that all things are allowed except that which is forbidden. We are better off out but as a close partner and the EU will be better off being able to ignore us when they see fit.
Are you saying that you, Jinx of PH, understands sovereignty better than person in charge of delivering Brexit? Anyone who spends time reading up on the processes of the EU (plenty there on the Europa website - yes I do comment on there and ask questions of the EU and every now and then get a boiler plate non-answer) will soon understand that the "sovereignty" offered under the EU is of the "you can be sovereign as long as you do as we say" sovereignty. This was only going to get worse as the years went on - I voted out at the first opportunity I had (I was 1 in 1975) as the direction the EU wanted to go in was one I could not see a bright side to.
We did not do well in the EU, the hoops and processes for funding did not sit well with the UK psych when bidding for grants.
The continental approach of all things are forbidden except what is expressly allowed does not rest easily with UK approach that all things are allowed except that which is forbidden. We are better off out but as a close partner and the EU will be better off being able to ignore us when they see fit.
I love PH
. Comedy Central has a lot to learn. jjlynn27 said:
Digga said:
jjlynn27 said:
It is probably my grasp of language. Why would you think that I got my 'arse handed to me'? Brexit will affect me less than, at guess, 98% of the population. to the campaign who invested their own money.
Which explains why you cannot and will not understand the vote.Moreover, I'd say one has to be British to understand the vote for Brexit; you might be first generation Indian British, third generation Pakistani, Italian British, or Spanish, whatever, but if you are not and do not consider yourself British you won't fully understand.
jjlynn27 said:
Digga said:
As for the Eurovision, you only had to see what dross got promoted ahead of the U.K. Efforts to understand just how badly the cards are stacked against us in the EU.
You are joking with this, right?Murph7355 said:
And as for the obvious reasons why you voted the way you did and post the way you do, change your job title in your profile if you don't want anyone drawing conclusions from it
The one thing where I suspect we will definitely agree is that the other is simply not worth engaging with. I don't understand your logic and dislike your condescending approach. I suspect you feel the same.
Not sure our very own EU promoter qualified to have a vote in the 1st place?The one thing where I suspect we will definitely agree is that the other is simply not worth engaging with. I don't understand your logic and dislike your condescending approach. I suspect you feel the same.
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