First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
Discussion
chrispmartha said:
Not my issue if you don’t like my answer to your daft question.
Why are you not up in arms about Patricio Manuel? I mean in your opinion he is a she, and you’re against men fighting against women?
You repay the favour with a daft question of your own? Why are you not up in arms about Patricio Manuel? I mean in your opinion he is a she, and you’re against men fighting against women?
The difference is obvious, an FtM does not have a significant irrevocable advantage against the other competitors. The disadvantage is with Patricio, not the entire field they're competing against.
amusingduck said:
chrispmartha said:
Not my issue if you don’t like my answer to your daft question.
Why are you not up in arms about Patricio Manuel? I mean in your opinion he is a she, and you’re against men fighting against women?
You repay the favour with a daft question of your own? Why are you not up in arms about Patricio Manuel? I mean in your opinion he is a she, and you’re against men fighting against women?
The difference is obvious, an FtM does not have a significant irrevocable advantage against the other competitors. The disadvantage is with Patricio, not the entire field they're competing against.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
In case you missed the recent thread about the First transgender paralympian
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57338207
"In fact, it was only last September that she ran her first official race as a female para-athlete - at the Italian Paralympics Championship, where she won gold in the 100m, 200m and 400m T12 events."
"Her physical superiority is so evident as to make competition unfair," she says, arguing that the IOC's exclusive focus on testosterone "makes no sense" when physique is also a factor.
In case you missed the recent thread about the First transgender paralympian
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57338207
"In fact, it was only last September that she ran her first official race as a female para-athlete - at the Italian Paralympics Championship, where she won gold in the 100m, 200m and 400m T12 events."
"Her physical superiority is so evident as to make competition unfair," she says, arguing that the IOC's exclusive focus on testosterone "makes no sense" when physique is also a factor.
Edited by rover 623gsi on Wednesday 23 June 09:41
Not only in Athletics but when England women's rugby team played a boys team, I think they lost substantially to a school year10 team (ie. under 15) ? (please correct if wrong).
There was also a storyline a few years ago (had to look it up again for the numbers), where the USA world champions womens football team were beaten roughly 5-2 and then 5-0 by some boy's under 15 teams!
Also ManUTD's women's team lost 9-0 against an under 15 boys team in 2018
This should not be a case of rubbishing the women's sport but should go some way to show the physical difference between a man and a woman. And is the reason that competition involving physical ability needs to be separated on 'sex'.
A bloke dressed up to look like a woman, or a bloke who has mental health issues and simply wants to think he's a women, is simply not a woman. There is no amount of wokery that will turn the science/biology in to something that it isn't.
I think this thread shows that most reject the notion that blokes should be allowed in the women's category - it is just plain weird and abstract to even have to write such a thing!
There was also a storyline a few years ago (had to look it up again for the numbers), where the USA world champions womens football team were beaten roughly 5-2 and then 5-0 by some boy's under 15 teams!
Also ManUTD's women's team lost 9-0 against an under 15 boys team in 2018
This should not be a case of rubbishing the women's sport but should go some way to show the physical difference between a man and a woman. And is the reason that competition involving physical ability needs to be separated on 'sex'.
A bloke dressed up to look like a woman, or a bloke who has mental health issues and simply wants to think he's a women, is simply not a woman. There is no amount of wokery that will turn the science/biology in to something that it isn't.
I think this thread shows that most reject the notion that blokes should be allowed in the women's category - it is just plain weird and abstract to even have to write such a thing!
GroundZero said:
Not only in Athletics but when England women's rugby team played a boys team, I think they lost substantially to a school year10 team (ie. under 15) ? (please correct if wrong).
There was also a storyline a few years ago (had to look it up again for the numbers), where the USA world champions womens football team were beaten roughly 5-2 and then 5-0 by some boy's under 15 teams!
Also ManUTD's women's team lost 9-0 against an under 15 boys team in 2018
This should not be a case of rubbishing the women's sport but should go some way to show the physical difference between a man and a woman. And is the reason that competition involving physical ability needs to be separated on 'sex'.
A bloke dressed up to look like a woman, or a bloke who has mental health issues and simply wants to think he's a women, is simply not a woman. There is no amount of wokery that will turn the science/biology in to something that it isn't.
I think this thread shows that most reject the notion that blokes should be allowed in the women's category - it is just plain weird and abstract to even have to write such a thing!
And here we are again, people saying that trans people are mentally ill and are just blokes dressed up as women (why is it alway s about Trans Women and not Trans Men?)There was also a storyline a few years ago (had to look it up again for the numbers), where the USA world champions womens football team were beaten roughly 5-2 and then 5-0 by some boy's under 15 teams!
Also ManUTD's women's team lost 9-0 against an under 15 boys team in 2018
This should not be a case of rubbishing the women's sport but should go some way to show the physical difference between a man and a woman. And is the reason that competition involving physical ability needs to be separated on 'sex'.
A bloke dressed up to look like a woman, or a bloke who has mental health issues and simply wants to think he's a women, is simply not a woman. There is no amount of wokery that will turn the science/biology in to something that it isn't.
I think this thread shows that most reject the notion that blokes should be allowed in the women's category - it is just plain weird and abstract to even have to write such a thing!
You can disagree with Trans people competing in sports without resorting to calling trans people mentally Ill
Also not sure where you're getting the England RU team thing from?
chrispmartha said:
GroundZero said:
Not only in Athletics but when England women's rugby team played a boys team, I think they lost substantially to a school year10 team (ie. under 15) ? (please correct if wrong).
There was also a storyline a few years ago (had to look it up again for the numbers), where the USA world champions womens football team were beaten roughly 5-2 and then 5-0 by some boy's under 15 teams!
Also ManUTD's women's team lost 9-0 against an under 15 boys team in 2018
This should not be a case of rubbishing the women's sport but should go some way to show the physical difference between a man and a woman. And is the reason that competition involving physical ability needs to be separated on 'sex'.
A bloke dressed up to look like a woman, or a bloke who has mental health issues and simply wants to think he's a women, is simply not a woman. There is no amount of wokery that will turn the science/biology in to something that it isn't.
I think this thread shows that most reject the notion that blokes should be allowed in the women's category - it is just plain weird and abstract to even have to write such a thing!
And here we are again, people saying that trans people are mentally ill and are just blokes dressed up as women (why is it alway s about Trans Women and not Trans Men?)There was also a storyline a few years ago (had to look it up again for the numbers), where the USA world champions womens football team were beaten roughly 5-2 and then 5-0 by some boy's under 15 teams!
Also ManUTD's women's team lost 9-0 against an under 15 boys team in 2018
This should not be a case of rubbishing the women's sport but should go some way to show the physical difference between a man and a woman. And is the reason that competition involving physical ability needs to be separated on 'sex'.
A bloke dressed up to look like a woman, or a bloke who has mental health issues and simply wants to think he's a women, is simply not a woman. There is no amount of wokery that will turn the science/biology in to something that it isn't.
I think this thread shows that most reject the notion that blokes should be allowed in the women's category - it is just plain weird and abstract to even have to write such a thing!
You can disagree with Trans people competing in sports without resorting to calling trans people mentally Ill
Also not sure where you're getting the England RU team thing from?
Randy Winkman said:
I agree with you about the language used to present any argument. But I'm still very firmly of the view that we need to protect women's sport and ensure that competition is fair. And that probably means excluding trans-women from most female sports. It's tough - but I think that elite sport needs to be kept separate from "normal life". eg toilets, clothes, pronouns, job opportunities etc
And I think that’s a fair comment, and as Ive said im not quite sure where my view on it (the sports situation) is.chrispmartha said:
And here we are again, people saying that trans people are mentally ill and are just blokes dressed up as women (why is it alway s about Trans Women and not Trans Men?)
You can disagree with Trans people competing in sports without resorting to calling trans people mentally Ill
In a free opinion society in which we largely are, I can hold the opinion that individuals who think they are a 'woman' whilst they are a biological male have mental health issues. Similar for vice versa, a woman who thinks she is a man. You and anyone else is of course free to choose to take 'offense' to that opinion, as is the fashion in debate these days. Again, no offense intended towards you on that comment - just generalising.You can disagree with Trans people competing in sports without resorting to calling trans people mentally Ill
Why always about blokes pretending to be women? Well in the context of this thread it is the issue of 'concern' regarding fair competition.
GroundZero said:
chrispmartha said:
And here we are again, people saying that trans people are mentally ill and are just blokes dressed up as women (why is it alway s about Trans Women and not Trans Men?)
You can disagree with Trans people competing in sports without resorting to calling trans people mentally Ill
In a free opinion society in which we largely are, I can hold the opinion that individuals who think they are a 'woman' whilst they are a biological male have mental health issues. Similar for vice versa, a woman who thinks she is a man. You and anyone else is of course free to choose to take 'offense' to that opinion, as is the fashion in debate these days. Again, no offense intended towards you on that comment - just generalising.You can disagree with Trans people competing in sports without resorting to calling trans people mentally Ill
Why always about blokes pretending to be women? Well in the context of this thread it is the issue of 'concern' regarding fair competition.
And of course you can hold that opinion, but its a circular argument because I can hold the opinion that you are unjustly and without any qualification calling people Mentally Ill, the same was said about Homosexual people, I would hope that you don't agree with that?
In PH terms, I'm a full-on pinko-lefty (ie. I'm a progressive liberal, left-of-centre, accepting of others, non-extreme, ride a bicycle etc.).
I have no issue with trans-gender people, accept them as they are and would not deliberately offend or upset them because of it. I am not "trans-phobic".
I do not, however, agree with the NZ trans-woman competing in the women's weightlifting at the Olympics.
The reasons have been expressed many times in the thread, with varying degrees of sympathy and sensitivity.
Many sports, including weightlifting, have participant categories for a reason.
The very small minority "Gender issues" do appear to have become vastly disproportionately prominent in recent times and I feel that they have reached the point that they are damaging other forms of progression such as women's rights, racism, sexuality, disability etc. with terms such as "woke" now being used as a derogatory catch-all term for any sort of progressive idea of the sort that some people do not like. I fear that there will be a large backlash.
I have no issue with trans-gender people, accept them as they are and would not deliberately offend or upset them because of it. I am not "trans-phobic".
I do not, however, agree with the NZ trans-woman competing in the women's weightlifting at the Olympics.
The reasons have been expressed many times in the thread, with varying degrees of sympathy and sensitivity.
Many sports, including weightlifting, have participant categories for a reason.
The very small minority "Gender issues" do appear to have become vastly disproportionately prominent in recent times and I feel that they have reached the point that they are damaging other forms of progression such as women's rights, racism, sexuality, disability etc. with terms such as "woke" now being used as a derogatory catch-all term for any sort of progressive idea of the sort that some people do not like. I fear that there will be a large backlash.
chrispmartha said:
I'm not offended, why would I be I'm not a Trans Person.
And of course you can hold that opinion, but its a circular argument because I can hold the opinion that you are unjustly and without any qualification calling people Mentally Ill, the same was said about Homosexual people, I would hope that you don't agree with that?
Yes I do agree with you that many of these conversations are circular with no agreement. But when you open the conversation to the wider public I think (just guessing here) that most do not agree/accept the notion that a man can become a woman on the basis that they feel like it. Nor within the realms of competition that fairness is maintained when a male competes against a women in many physical sports.And of course you can hold that opinion, but its a circular argument because I can hold the opinion that you are unjustly and without any qualification calling people Mentally Ill, the same was said about Homosexual people, I would hope that you don't agree with that?
Regarding the comment about "without any qualification calling people mentally ill", just to point out that this is also circular, in that on your side of the argument it is a case of "without any qualification calling people mentally sound".
Edited by GroundZero on Wednesday 23 June 11:08
chrispmartha said:
GroundZero said:
chrispmartha said:
And here we are again, people saying that trans people are mentally ill and are just blokes dressed up as women (why is it alway s about Trans Women and not Trans Men?)
You can disagree with Trans people competing in sports without resorting to calling trans people mentally Ill
In a free opinion society in which we largely are, I can hold the opinion that individuals who think they are a 'woman' whilst they are a biological male have mental health issues. Similar for vice versa, a woman who thinks she is a man. You and anyone else is of course free to choose to take 'offense' to that opinion, as is the fashion in debate these days. Again, no offense intended towards you on that comment - just generalising.You can disagree with Trans people competing in sports without resorting to calling trans people mentally Ill
Why always about blokes pretending to be women? Well in the context of this thread it is the issue of 'concern' regarding fair competition.
And of course you can hold that opinion, but its a circular argument because I can hold the opinion that you are unjustly and without any qualification calling people Mentally Ill, the same was said about Homosexual people, I would hope that you don't agree with that?
GroundZero said:
chrispmartha said:
I'm not offended, why would I be I'm not a Trans Person.
And of course you can hold that opinion, but its a circular argument because I can hold the opinion that you are unjustly and without any qualification calling people Mentally Ill, the same was said about Homosexual people, I would hope that you don't agree with that?
Yes I do agree with you that many of these conversations are circular with no agreement. But when you open the conversation to the wider public I think (just guessing here) that most do not agree/accept the notion that a man can become a woman on the basis that they feel like it. Nor within the realms of competition that fairness is maintained when a male competes against a women in many physical sports.And of course you can hold that opinion, but its a circular argument because I can hold the opinion that you are unjustly and without any qualification calling people Mentally Ill, the same was said about Homosexual people, I would hope that you don't agree with that?
Regarding the comment about "without any qualification calling people mentally ill", just to point out that this is also circular, in that on your side of the argument it is a case of "without any qualification calling people mentally sound".
Edited by GroundZero on Wednesday 23 June 11:08
I would agree that more people in general think there is an issue with trans people competing in sports.
As for the mentally Ill 'circular argument' I disagree that it's circular, - some Trans People may well have mental health issues, just like anyone else, the difference being Im not making a blanket statement like you saying Trans = Mental Illness, can you not see how that could be highly offensive to Trans People?
chrispmartha said:
amusingduck said:
chrispmartha said:
Not my issue if you don’t like my answer to your daft question.
Why are you not up in arms about Patricio Manuel? I mean in your opinion he is a she, and you’re against men fighting against women?
You repay the favour with a daft question of your own? Why are you not up in arms about Patricio Manuel? I mean in your opinion he is a she, and you’re against men fighting against women?
The difference is obvious, an FtM does not have a significant irrevocable advantage against the other competitors. The disadvantage is with Patricio, not the entire field they're competing against.
He fought one (against a guy who hasn't registered a single win) 4 years ago, and never again, suggesting it was some sort of publicity stunt, or personal aim to accomplish.
It meant nothing to boxing and he wouldn't have been able to meat a competent male boxer.
You've spent the whole thread being very pro-trans in female sport, but flounce when asked a direct question.
Would you be ok with a professional male boxer fighting a female if he transitions. You're not obviously, because you know it's lunacy, but it doesn't support your agenda so you'll run away from the question.
Are you ok with an ex-male weightlifter taking a medal/place from a woman in the Olympics?
Trackdayer said:
We have a situation where some lefties are viciously attacking other lefties. TERFs vs the LGBTQ+ brigade.
It's absolutely brilliantly entertaining.
Maybe because it's not a left v right issue or left V left issue, I know you see everything in a binary way (no pun intended).It's absolutely brilliantly entertaining.
RobbieTheTruth said:
chrispmartha said:
amusingduck said:
chrispmartha said:
Not my issue if you don’t like my answer to your daft question.
Why are you not up in arms about Patricio Manuel? I mean in your opinion he is a she, and you’re against men fighting against women?
You repay the favour with a daft question of your own? Why are you not up in arms about Patricio Manuel? I mean in your opinion he is a she, and you’re against men fighting against women?
The difference is obvious, an FtM does not have a significant irrevocable advantage against the other competitors. The disadvantage is with Patricio, not the entire field they're competing against.
He fought one (against a guy who hasn't registered a single win) 4 years ago, and never again, suggesting it was some sort of publicity stunt, or personal aim to accomplish.
It meant nothing to boxing and he wouldn't have been able to meat a competent male boxer.
You've spent the whole thread being very pro-trans in female sport, but flounce when asked a direct question.
Would you be ok with a professional male boxer fighting a female if he transitions. You're not obviously, because you know it's lunacy, but it doesn't support your agenda so you'll run away from the question.
Are you ok with an ex-male weightlifter taking a medal/place from a woman in the Olympics?
I have answered your question numerous times, it's not my fault you don't like the answer.
GroundZero said:
Not only in Athletics but when England women's rugby team played a boys team, I think they lost substantially to a school year10 team (ie. under 15) ? (please correct if wrong).
There was also a storyline a few years ago (had to look it up again for the numbers), where the USA world champions womens football team were beaten roughly 5-2 and then 5-0 by some boy's under 15 teams!
Also ManUTD's women's team lost 9-0 against an under 15 boys team in 2018
This should not be a case of rubbishing the women's sport but should go some way to show the physical difference between a man and a woman. And is the reason that competition involving physical ability needs to be separated on 'sex'.
A bloke dressed up to look like a woman, or a bloke who has mental health issues and simply wants to think he's a women, is simply not a woman. There is no amount of wokery that will turn the science/biology in to something that it isn't.
I think this thread shows that most reject the notion that blokes should be allowed in the women's category - it is just plain weird and abstract to even have to write such a thing!
I can't remember where I heard it or how true it is but it's been said that thousands of men have run under the women's marathon WR (which is 2hr14 and fThere was also a storyline a few years ago (had to look it up again for the numbers), where the USA world champions womens football team were beaten roughly 5-2 and then 5-0 by some boy's under 15 teams!
Also ManUTD's women's team lost 9-0 against an under 15 boys team in 2018
This should not be a case of rubbishing the women's sport but should go some way to show the physical difference between a man and a woman. And is the reason that competition involving physical ability needs to be separated on 'sex'.
A bloke dressed up to look like a woman, or a bloke who has mental health issues and simply wants to think he's a women, is simply not a woman. There is no amount of wokery that will turn the science/biology in to something that it isn't.
I think this thread shows that most reject the notion that blokes should be allowed in the women's category - it is just plain weird and abstract to even have to write such a thing!
king impressive what ever genitalia you have) which sort of highlights the total annihilation women's sport would suffer if they continue down this road. The top male "fun" runner at the 2019 London marathon ran 2hr17, that's a club runner, not entered as an elite (although clearly a v fit bloke), that's considerably quicker than the vast majority of the elite and pro womens race.
A Winner Is You said:
chrispmartha said:
GroundZero said:
chrispmartha said:
And here we are again, people saying that trans people are mentally ill and are just blokes dressed up as women (why is it alway s about Trans Women and not Trans Men?)
You can disagree with Trans people competing in sports without resorting to calling trans people mentally Ill
In a free opinion society in which we largely are, I can hold the opinion that individuals who think they are a 'woman' whilst they are a biological male have mental health issues. Similar for vice versa, a woman who thinks she is a man. You and anyone else is of course free to choose to take 'offense' to that opinion, as is the fashion in debate these days. Again, no offense intended towards you on that comment - just generalising.You can disagree with Trans people competing in sports without resorting to calling trans people mentally Ill
Why always about blokes pretending to be women? Well in the context of this thread it is the issue of 'concern' regarding fair competition.
And of course you can hold that opinion, but its a circular argument because I can hold the opinion that you are unjustly and without any qualification calling people Mentally Ill, the same was said about Homosexual people, I would hope that you don't agree with that?
There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues. It's actually incredibly hard to start transitioning in this country. You either have to sit on an NHS waiting list for years or have the thousands of pounds it costs to pay for it yourself. There are currently no facilities in the UK for F to M bottom surgery. The high suicide rates for trans people are due to a number of factors and can in no way be generalised down to people who were talked into transitioning and didn't really want to.
There is also no movement to shame lesbians who would rather not have sex with someone who still has a penis. Weirdly, trans women don't want to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. There may be some individuals who have stated sentiments to that effect but imo it's mostly an urban legend that's been used to paint trans women as predators.
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