RMT union vote for a national rail strike

[legzr1]

Scrimpton said:

Yep. It's always been obvious but having 2 threads running at the same time really shows the difference between the forelock-tugging to our betters and the sneering resentment towards uppity peasants.

It certainly does.

The franchising system on the railway and the current halting of that system is interesting too.
Profits were privatised, losses socialised.
Lots of individuals made an eye watering amount of money then simply walked away when things got tough. Tax payers picked up the bill.

[biggbn]

JagLover said:

Gareth1974 said:

JagLover said:

Any pay rise therefore will be coming from the taxpayer. That is why people might want to have a moan.

We’re into the third year of a three year (so far) pay freeze, and other public sector employees have had rises in his period.
The cost of living is soaring.
When is the point that it would be reasonable to have pay rise, if now is the wrong time?

One major difference is that the rest of the public sector provide a service to the taxpayer, whether that be education, health, management of the benefits system etc (though no doubt there are many non-productive jobs).

This is merely a means of transportation and one that requires large amounts of public money to continue in operation. One option could be to scale back its activities to the point where breakeven is achieved, and then future pay rises could be met through inflationary fare increases and/or efficiency savings. I doubt this would be popular with the staff though as it would require mass redundancies.

Merely a means of transportation? That's rather important to the ongoing efficiency of UK Inc. isn't it? Lorry drivers, sailors, pilots, all merely means of transportation, nowt of import whatsoever.

[BigMon]

Scrimpton said:

BigMon said:

No it won't. As I said previously, compare the posts on here with the CEO pay thread. It's N,P&E in a nutshell.

Yep. It's always been obvious but having 2 threads running at the same time really shows the difference between the forelock-tugging to our betters and the sneering resentment towards uppity peasants.

It's one of the elements of right wing politics (zero compassion or understanding of a situation) that I find most distasteful and it's displayed in many threads here alongside other greatest right wing hits like the vast majority of recipients of benefits are scroungers.

[biggbn]

BigMon said:

Scrimpton said:

BigMon said:

No it won't. As I said previously, compare the posts on here with the CEO pay thread. It's N,P&E in a nutshell.

Yep. It's always been obvious but having 2 threads running at the same time really shows the difference between the forelock-tugging to our betters and the sneering resentment towards uppity peasants.

It's one of the elements of right wing politics (zero compassion or understanding of a situation) that I find most distasteful and it's displayed in many threads here alongside other greatest right wing hits like the vast majority of recipients of benefits are scroungers.

Not all 'right wing'; and I find the terms left and right wing mostly obsolete and incredibly divisive as a convenient form of labelling and shutting down discussion by discrediting the others position, lack compassion or understanding. It is an adoption of one extreme of an ideology and assuming it is holistic, just as the adoption of the 70s unionist or vegan extinction rebellion member is the stereotype pedalled about the 'left' . The truth is there are caring compassionate souls on both sides but, to paraphrase Betrand Russel, they are quiet and seldom heard whereas their more vocal, less cerebral brethren are..

Edited by biggbn on Sunday 29th May 12:50

[JagLover]

biggbn said:

Merely a means of transportation? That's rather important to the ongoing efficiency of UK Inc. isn't it? Lorry drivers, sailors, pilots, all merely means of transportation, nowt of import whatsoever.

Only one of those requires a public subsidy. The rest make a net contribution due to taxes.

So if one means of transportation is unviable without ever increasing public subsidies perhaps time to develop the alternatives.

[TonyToniTone]

biggbn said:

Not all 'right wing'; and I find the terms left and right wing mostly obsolete and incredibly divisive as a convenient form of labelling and shutting down discussion by discrediting the others position, lack compassion or understanding. It is an adoption of one extreme of an ideology and assuming it is holistic, just as the adoption of the 70s unionist or vegan extinction rebellion member is the stereotype pedalled about the 'left' . The truth is there are caring compassionate souls on both sides but, to paraphrase Betrand Russel, they are quiet and seldom heard whereas their more vocal, less cerebral brethren are..

Edited by biggbn on Sunday 29th May 12:50

The RMT leaders are far left and proud of it, they event took to wearing the Saint Georges ribbon as Russia invaded Ukraine.

[biggbn]

JagLover said:

biggbn said:

Merely a means of transportation? That's rather important to the ongoing efficiency of UK Inc. isn't it? Lorry drivers, sailors, pilots, all merely means of transportation, nowt of import whatsoever.

Only one of those requires a public subsidy. The rest make a net contribution due to taxes.

So if one means of transportation is unviable without ever increasing public subsidies perhaps time to develop the alternatives.

Or make the existing one more efficient?

[biggbn]

TonyToniTone said:

biggbn said:

Not all 'right wing'; and I find the terms left and right wing mostly obsolete and incredibly divisive as a convenient form of labelling and shutting down discussion by discrediting the others position, lack compassion or understanding. It is an adoption of one extreme of an ideology and assuming it is holistic, just as the adoption of the 70s unionist or vegan extinction rebellion member is the stereotype pedalled about the 'left' . The truth is there are caring compassionate souls on both sides but, to paraphrase Betrand Russel, they are quiet and seldom heard whereas their more vocal, less cerebral brethren are..

Edited by biggbn on Sunday 29th May 12:50

The RMT leaders are far left and proud of it, they event took to wearing the Saint Georges ribbon as Russia invaded Ukraine.

Pretty much the point I was making...I think it was one union official though, wasn't it? A dinosaur named Hedley? Doesn't really fit the 'they' narrative does it?

[TonyToniTone]

biggbn said:

Pretty much the point I was making...I think it was one union official though, wasn't it? A dinosaur named Hedley? Doesn't really fit the 'they' narrative does it?

RMT Senior leadership... https://www.rmt.org.uk/about/rmt-structure/senior-...

[Gareth1974]

JagLover said:

biggbn said:

Merely a means of transportation? That's rather important to the ongoing efficiency of UK Inc. isn't it? Lorry drivers, sailors, pilots, all merely means of transportation, nowt of import whatsoever.

Only one of those requires a public subsidy. The rest make a net contribution due to taxes.

So if one means of transportation is unviable without ever increasing public subsidies perhaps time to develop the alternatives.

The vast majority of the network is profitable. It’s the trains at the edges of the day, or line serving remote areas that require subsidy.

Hence why private companies were willing to pay the government £100m a year just for the right to operate trains over single route, because of the profit they could make over and above that.

[biggbn]

TonyToniTone said:

biggbn said:

Pretty much the point I was making...I think it was one union official though, wasn't it? A dinosaur named Hedley? Doesn't really fit the 'they' narrative does it?

RMT Senior leadership... https://www.rmt.org.uk/about/rmt-structure/senior-...

Not sure what point you are making? Bit slow today, sorry. From what I remember of the ribbon story it was one of the unions officials rather unforgiveable wearing it at a union line of some sort?

[Electro1980]

legzr1 said:

Scrimpton said:

Yep. It's always been obvious but having 2 threads running at the same time really shows the difference between the forelock-tugging to our betters and the sneering resentment towards uppity peasants.

It certainly does.

The franchising system on the railway and the current halting of that system is interesting too.
Profits were privatised, losses socialised.
Lots of individuals made an eye watering amount of money then simply walked away when things got tough. Tax payers picked up the bill.

Isn’t that the whole modus operandi of the current government, and one of the reasons we have the zombie economy we do? I think the windfall tax is a start, but still a long way off the societal cost. For example, Oil and gas industry was quite happy to take furlough money two years ago, but now is whining about having to pay some of the costs when they are doing well. Same with the finance industry. Quite happy to demand money in 2008. Quite happy for banks to be propped up by the state and the markets to get stabilised and protected. Also moan when they government wants them to play a part in protecting wider society.

[Biggy Stardust]

biggbn said:

JagLover said:

biggbn said:

Merely a means of transportation? That's rather important to the ongoing efficiency of UK Inc. isn't it? Lorry drivers, sailors, pilots, all merely means of transportation, nowt of import whatsoever.

Only one of those requires a public subsidy. The rest make a net contribution due to taxes.

So if one means of transportation is unviable without ever increasing public subsidies perhaps time to develop the alternatives.

Or make the existing one more efficient?

Will big pay rises help achieve that? I think not.

[Gareth1974]

Biggy Stardust said:

biggbn said:

JagLover said:

biggbn said:

Merely a means of transportation? That's rather important to the ongoing efficiency of UK Inc. isn't it? Lorry drivers, sailors, pilots, all merely means of transportation, nowt of import whatsoever.

Only one of those requires a public subsidy. The rest make a net contribution due to taxes.

So if one means of transportation is unviable without ever increasing public subsidies perhaps time to develop the alternatives.

Or make the existing one more efficient?

Will big pay rises help achieve that? I think not.

For how many more years should the pay freeze continue then?

[Vasco]

Scrimpton said:

98elise said:

Good terms and conditions obtained by blackmail. The rest of us have to work in a free market and get paid accordingly. I don't care what anyone earns if it's driven by a free market. There will be a reason why it's well paid (skills, desirability, training, commitment).

Yeah, if Signallers want more money they should just go and work for another railway or start their own. Lazy.

Why is a signaller restricted to only ever doing signalling? If he's good as a signaller, he might be ideal for work elsewhere too.

[Gareth1974]

Vasco said:

Scrimpton said:

98elise said:

Good terms and conditions obtained by blackmail. The rest of us have to work in a free market and get paid accordingly. I don't care what anyone earns if it's driven by a free market. There will be a reason why it's well paid (skills, desirability, training, commitment).

Yeah, if Signallers want more money they should just go and work for another railway or start their own. Lazy.

Why is a signaller restricted to only ever doing signalling? If he's good as a signaller, he might be ideal for work elsewhere too.

That’s true. Signallers can make good controllers and supervisors.
In many places there is a shortage of signallers already.

[98elise]

Scrimpton said:

BigMon said:

No it won't. As I said previously, compare the posts on here with the CEO pay thread. It's N,P&E in a nutshell.

Yep. It's always been obvious but having 2 threads running at the same time really shows the difference between the forelock-tugging to our betters and the sneering resentment towards uppity peasants.

Do CEO's blackmail their employers and customers?

It's nothing to do with sneering at peasants (that says a lot about the lefts mind set). When lorry drivers started enjoying pay rises because they are in demand did anyone sneer at them?

Its rail workers exploiting a near monopoly position to feather their own nests at the expense of us peasants that's objectionable.

If it being a rail worker doesn't pay what you want to earn, don't take it up as a career. Do something worth of your dedication and brilliance.

[Electro1980]

98elise said:

Do CEO's blackmail their employers and customers?

Yes. They get that high pay by demanding it or saying they will leave. The right to withhold labour, just like the unions. The only difference is no one notices if the CEO does that. Make of that what you will.

[Vasco]

98elise said:

Scrimpton said:

BigMon said:

No it won't. As I said previously, compare the posts on here with the CEO pay thread. It's N,P&E in a nutshell.

Yep. It's always been obvious but having 2 threads running at the same time really shows the difference between the forelock-tugging to our betters and the sneering resentment towards uppity peasants.

Do CEO's blackmail their employers and customers?

It's nothing to do with sneering at peasants (that says a lot about the lefts mind set). When lorry drivers started enjoying pay rises because they are in demand did anyone sneer at them?

Its rail workers exploiting a near monopoly position to feather their own nests at the expense of us peasants that's objectionable.

If it being a rail worker doesn't pay what you want to earn, don't take it up as a career. Do something worth of your dedication and brilliance.

Well said.

There's rather a lot of 'look at me, how important I am' on this thread from some rail staff who clearly have no knowledge of how modern businesses work. The demands on people in many occupations would astound some rail staff.
I am all for a fair days wage for a good days work - and many rail staff fall into this category - but the attitude of so many staff, and the willing desire to threaten industrial action over numerous trivial issues, suggests that they have a death wish for the railways in the UK.

[Gareth1974]

A bit of light relief https://youtu.be/3xmDlyrjrXc