The U.S.A. Mass Shootings Thread
Discussion
MC Bodge said:
ferrisbueller said:
It's odd that the god thing doesn't work in the way so many of them think. Prayer it seems is not an effective means of protection from guns (or anything else?).
Prayer does sod-all.Sorry if that upsets anybody.
Thoughts and prayers
The whole T&P thing in itself (to me) being nearly as lunatic as the US gun situation.
The Rotrex Kid said:
MC Bodge said:
The Rotrex Kid said:
But, but, they were the good guys with guns that stop this kind of thing.
Saddening. What a complete clusterf
k. Wake up America.
Exactly. Saddening. What a complete clusterf
k. Wake up America.The "good guys" shouldn't need to be required to put themselves in that position, and many won't.
Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 27th May 07:45
A combination of the self-reliant "American Dream", "The Frontier" and becoming a hero in a firefight against "bad guys" (possibly post-humously).
Of course, many of the people with these fantasies who promote and enable the gun culture are not the ordinary working people on the ground who would need to stand in front of the bullets.
There are business and political interests involved too. Fear can help form a tribe and can help generate profits.
Ps. The God thing just adds an additional layer of ludicrousness.
Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 27th May 09:09
faa77 said:
You crying about Brexit?
We're not like the continentals either.
'The continentals'? They all alike then?We're not like the continentals either.
Socially, we differ from the USA in quite fundamental ways. I corresponded with a few Americans and we had a couple of couples stay with us a couple of times. Two of my kids were so aghast at what one couple were suggesting that they left the dining table early and found things to do from first thing the next day. The other couple stayed once, were a bit quiet, but the second time they came they were a lot more voluble. Remarkable the stories that emerged, especially with regards guns. One was a uni lecturer and a 'socialist'. He honestly believed it as well.
We had an officer from the Washington Capitol Police stay with us and she mentioned that she could hear the impact of bullets hitting the reinforced underside of the police helicopter. Their cars were crewed by at least three: one to deal with the stop, another to cover the incident with a special type of shotgun (only details I have) and a third, with a 'spotter rifle' to cover the roof tops.
I have no idea of any practical answer. Nice, generous people who seemed to think we were quaint with our old-fashioned ideas, such as walking around town in the wee smalls.
Byker28i said:
gotoPzero said:
We have been through this many times on this thread. The AR is not really any different to any other semi automatic rifle. Its .223 / 5.56 ammo is not even that potent in terms of rifles.
They are not even the most popular gun used in mass shootings.
They are almost never used by criminals.
If you really, really want to do something about gun deaths in the USA ban all handguns.
Just how you get them all back I have no clue, given the millions in the hands of criminals are impossible to trace plus the millions legally owned that are not registered.... thats the issue here.
Uvalde: AR-15They are not even the most popular gun used in mass shootings.
They are almost never used by criminals.
If you really, really want to do something about gun deaths in the USA ban all handguns.
Just how you get them all back I have no clue, given the millions in the hands of criminals are impossible to trace plus the millions legally owned that are not registered.... thats the issue here.
Buffalo: AR-15
Boulder: AR-15
Orlando: AR-15
Parkland: AR-15
Las Vegas: AR-15
Aurora, CO: AR-15
Sandy Hook: AR-15
Waffle House: AR-15
San Bernardino: AR-15
Midland/Odessa: AR-15
Poway synagogue: AR-15
Sutherland Springs: AR-15
Tree of Life Synagogue: AR-15
What firearms were used in those?
I get what you are saying. ARs *are* used in some mass shootings but statistically they are some of the least used - handguns account for 60-70% of all mass shooting fatalities. So focusing on just that one firearm is not going to help the situation.
Its a total misunderstanding that the make and model of firearm makes it any more deadly. That has nothing to do with it. The muzzle energy is what counts. And in order to kill a human you dont need much muzzle energy. Thats why airguns are limited to 12ft/lb. .22 Long Rifle ranges from c.90 to 140ft/lb and is considered one of the weakest rounds out there.
So virtually any firearm which fires lead bullets using a powder charge is going to be able to inflict a fatal shot to a human at close range. Heck even .22LR is going to have enough energy at 100 yards let alone 5 yards.
They need to do something that controls ALL firearms.
Their issue is, they DONT KNOW where ALL firearms are.
Its literally that simple. They dont know. Its such a big problem and frankly other than mass registration and chip away at unregistered guns for the next 50-100 years there is not much they can do now.
gotoPzero said:
I get what you are saying. ARs *are* used in some mass shootings but statistically they are some of the least used - handguns account for 60-70% of all mass shooting fatalities. So focusing on just that one firearm is not going to help the situation.
It depends how you define mass shootings. When it comes to mass fatality shootings (4+), AR-15s are massively overrepresented as per my previous post you ignored. The issue here is you seem unable to comprehend the fact that, although pistols are involved in about 70% "more" mass shootings as a raw number than AR-15 type firearms, there are at least 7 times as many handguns as there are AR-15s...so the latter is hugely statistically overrepresented. Moreover, this is an apples to oranges comparison. "AR-15 type firearm" and "handgun" aren't really comparable. "AR-15 type firearm" and "M1911 type firearm" would be, for example.
HM-2 said:
gotoPzero said:
I get what you are saying. ARs *are* used in some mass shootings but statistically they are some of the least used - handguns account for 60-70% of all mass shooting fatalities. So focusing on just that one firearm is not going to help the situation.
It depends how you define mass shootings. When it comes to mass fatality shootings (4+), AR-15s are massively overrepresented as per my previous post you ignored. The issue here is you seem unable to comprehend the fact that, although pistols are involved in about 70% "more" mass shootings as a raw number than AR-15 type firearms, there are at least 7 times as many handguns as there are AR-15s...so the latter is hugely statistically overrepresented. Moreover, this is an apples to oranges comparison. "AR-15 type firearm" and "handgun" aren't really comparable. "AR-15 type firearm" and "M1911 type firearm" would be, for example.
NRS said:
No, he's not ignoring it. You're both arguing from two different stats and solutions - gotoPzero is just saying to fix gun deaths in the US it is much more effective to ban handguns. You're arguing to stop mass casualty deaths (which is overall a quite small amount of deaths overall) then banning the AR15 would be more effective as it is overrepresented. Both are right, they're just answering a different questions - save more lives overall, or get rid of a particularly nasty section of the deaths (which is perhaps more realistic to happen, given the strong gun lobby).
Plus they've already had an Assault Weapons Ban ( Wiki link) that didn't really work because the government said "it's an assault weapon if it has these specific features" and the gun manufacturers designed guns without those specific bits that were still pretty much the same gun.MesoForm said:
Plus they've already had an Assault Weapons Ban ( Wiki link) that didn't really work because the government said "it's an assault weapon if it has these specific features" and the gun manufacturers designed guns without those specific bits that were still pretty much the same gun.
The assault weapons ban was for a fixed (10 year?) period.Guess which party refused to extend it when it expired.
NRS said:
HM-2 said:
gotoPzero said:
I get what you are saying. ARs *are* used in some mass shootings but statistically they are some of the least used - handguns account for 60-70% of all mass shooting fatalities. So focusing on just that one firearm is not going to help the situation.
It depends how you define mass shootings. When it comes to mass fatality shootings (4+), AR-15s are massively overrepresented as per my previous post you ignored. The issue here is you seem unable to comprehend the fact that, although pistols are involved in about 70% "more" mass shootings as a raw number than AR-15 type firearms, there are at least 7 times as many handguns as there are AR-15s...so the latter is hugely statistically overrepresented. Moreover, this is an apples to oranges comparison. "AR-15 type firearm" and "handgun" aren't really comparable. "AR-15 type firearm" and "M1911 type firearm" would be, for example.
MesoForm said:
Plus they've already had an Assault Weapons Ban ( Wiki link) that didn't really work because the government said "it's an assault weapon if it has these specific features" and the gun manufacturers designed guns without those specific bits that were still pretty much the same gun.
To be frank, this obsession of the anti's with the AR-15 is ridiculous. Their only issue is how the gun looks, ooh it loooks a bit like an assault rifle we must all cower in our beds. The AR-15 is not a single gun, it is a style of gun, and it's made by numerous manufacturers. It is an extremely popular rifle because it can be customised to the owners heart's content. If the AR-15 didn't exist does anyone really think that the shooting atrocities wouldn't have happened?Next on the bogie list are "ghost guns", big whoop, someone can build a gun that doesn't have a serial number. So what? Since the US doesn't have a register of who owns what, nor do guns print the serial number of the gun on every bullet fired, what use does a serial number add?
What the US lack isn't gun control, its "OWNER" control, if they would only stop inappropriate people buying guns legally (don't get me started on the illegal guns) then things would get better. Trying to put the blame on the gun (AR-15 haters I am looking at you) is crazy, it's the nut behind the trigger that is the issue, not the inanimate object.
Discussion of gun type misses the point and plays into the hands of the NRA. It does provide the opportunity for PH walts to geek about calibres and muzzle energy - all irrelevant
If you look at this from a disease control point of view it is near certain that reducing the availability of assault rifles would save lives. It's difficult to understand the motives of school shooters and other mass killers but their intent is clear. To stay alive whilst killing as many as possible. Assault rifles allow this. The police in Texas were clearly reluctant to interevene in a situtation where they were outgunned.
If we were looking at cancers, we wouldn't be saying 'We haven't got the cure for all cancers so we shouldn't be treating one'. Although reduction of all gun deaths with is a laudable aim, to lump in mass killings with criminal killings, family murders and suicides is misguided.
It is almost certain that, as was seen in Australia and NZ, restriction of assault rifles would lead to a demonstrable reduction in mass killings. Problem with this it would demonstrate that in the US gun control could work and that's the last thing the gun lobby want.
If you look at this from a disease control point of view it is near certain that reducing the availability of assault rifles would save lives. It's difficult to understand the motives of school shooters and other mass killers but their intent is clear. To stay alive whilst killing as many as possible. Assault rifles allow this. The police in Texas were clearly reluctant to interevene in a situtation where they were outgunned.
If we were looking at cancers, we wouldn't be saying 'We haven't got the cure for all cancers so we shouldn't be treating one'. Although reduction of all gun deaths with is a laudable aim, to lump in mass killings with criminal killings, family murders and suicides is misguided.
It is almost certain that, as was seen in Australia and NZ, restriction of assault rifles would lead to a demonstrable reduction in mass killings. Problem with this it would demonstrate that in the US gun control could work and that's the last thing the gun lobby want.
Edited by oddman on Friday 27th May 12:42
rscott said:
Seems that some law enforcement went in to get their own children out, not to tackle the shooter - https://twitter.com/SawyerHackett/status/152980880...
And the official statement yesterday that a guard was shot by the killer on his way is no longer the official story - they now say he just walked in, unchallenged.
And that the police were outside for about an hour before going in. They handcuffed one parent, but did nothing until the Border Patrol team arrived.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/26/uv...
that's shocking really, terrible from the policeAnd the official statement yesterday that a guard was shot by the killer on his way is no longer the official story - they now say he just walked in, unchallenged.
And that the police were outside for about an hour before going in. They handcuffed one parent, but did nothing until the Border Patrol team arrived.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/26/uv...
China has banned guns for many years, but it's made little difference to school mass attacks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_Ch...
The most disturbing was in 2019. "More than 50 people, almost all of them young children, were hospitalized in southwest China on Tuesday after a man broke into a kindergarten and sprayed them with a corrosive chemical as “revenge on society.”
And if you can't get a gun here in the US, just like the UK they turn to knives.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/multiple-s...
And every single member of PH is able to get one of these, so should they be banned?
https://www.dw.com/en/us-car-rams-into-wisconsin-c...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6953703/D...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/...
So don't blame the tool used or how easy the tool is to obtain, blame the person who used the tool or better still, find out why some people have gone mad and fix that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_Ch...
The most disturbing was in 2019. "More than 50 people, almost all of them young children, were hospitalized in southwest China on Tuesday after a man broke into a kindergarten and sprayed them with a corrosive chemical as “revenge on society.”
And if you can't get a gun here in the US, just like the UK they turn to knives.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/multiple-s...
And every single member of PH is able to get one of these, so should they be banned?
https://www.dw.com/en/us-car-rams-into-wisconsin-c...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6953703/D...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/...
So don't blame the tool used or how easy the tool is to obtain, blame the person who used the tool or better still, find out why some people have gone mad and fix that.
WCZ said:
rscott said:
Seems that some law enforcement went in to get their own children out, not to tackle the shooter - https://twitter.com/SawyerHackett/status/152980880...
And the official statement yesterday that a guard was shot by the killer on his way is no longer the official story - they now say he just walked in, unchallenged.
And that the police were outside for about an hour before going in. They handcuffed one parent, but did nothing until the Border Patrol team arrived.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/26/uv...
that's shocking really, terrible from the policeAnd the official statement yesterday that a guard was shot by the killer on his way is no longer the official story - they now say he just walked in, unchallenged.
And that the police were outside for about an hour before going in. They handcuffed one parent, but did nothing until the Border Patrol team arrived.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/26/uv...
NMNeil said:
China has banned guns for many years, but it's made little difference to school mass attacks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_Ch...
The most disturbing was in 2019. "More than 50 people, almost all of them young children, were hospitalized in southwest China on Tuesday after a man broke into a kindergarten and sprayed them with a corrosive chemical as “revenge on society.”
And if you can't get a gun here in the US, just like the UK they turn to knives.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/multiple-s...
And every single member of PH is able to get one of these, so should they be banned?
https://www.dw.com/en/us-car-rams-into-wisconsin-c...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6953703/D...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/...
So don't blame the tool used or how easy the tool is to obtain, blame the person who used the tool or better still, find out why some people have gone mad and fix that.
You're just never going to learn.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_Ch...
The most disturbing was in 2019. "More than 50 people, almost all of them young children, were hospitalized in southwest China on Tuesday after a man broke into a kindergarten and sprayed them with a corrosive chemical as “revenge on society.”
And if you can't get a gun here in the US, just like the UK they turn to knives.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/multiple-s...
And every single member of PH is able to get one of these, so should they be banned?
https://www.dw.com/en/us-car-rams-into-wisconsin-c...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6953703/D...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/...
So don't blame the tool used or how easy the tool is to obtain, blame the person who used the tool or better still, find out why some people have gone mad and fix that.
NMNeil said:
And if you can't get a gun here in the US, just like the UK they turn to knives.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/multiple-s...
It's like clockwork. https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/multiple-s...
NMNeil said:
China has banned guns for many years, but it's made little difference to school mass attacks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_Ch...
The most disturbing was in 2019. "More than 50 people, almost all of them young children, were hospitalized in southwest China on Tuesday after a man broke into a kindergarten and sprayed them with a corrosive chemical as “revenge on society.”
And if you can't get a gun here in the US, just like the UK they turn to knives.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/multiple-s...
And every single member of PH is able to get one of these, so should they be banned?
https://www.dw.com/en/us-car-rams-into-wisconsin-c...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6953703/D...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/...
So don't blame the tool used or how easy the tool is to obtain, blame the person who used the tool or better still, find out why some people have gone mad and fix that.
Absolute mentalism, encapsulating in one post why the US will never learn, for every sensible septic, there's at least two or three grotesquely overweight, bible bashing god old boys trotting out the NRA line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_Ch...
The most disturbing was in 2019. "More than 50 people, almost all of them young children, were hospitalized in southwest China on Tuesday after a man broke into a kindergarten and sprayed them with a corrosive chemical as “revenge on society.”
And if you can't get a gun here in the US, just like the UK they turn to knives.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/multiple-s...
And every single member of PH is able to get one of these, so should they be banned?
https://www.dw.com/en/us-car-rams-into-wisconsin-c...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6953703/D...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/...
So don't blame the tool used or how easy the tool is to obtain, blame the person who used the tool or better still, find out why some people have gone mad and fix that.
NMNeil said:
And if you can't get a gun here in the US, just like the UK they turn to knives.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/multiple-s...
24 injured in Pittsburgh not killedhttps://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/multiple-s...
The cops in Texas might have intervened sooner and saved lives if the nut had a knife and not an assault rifle.
These spree killings have a particular characteristic which I set out above
oddman said:
It's difficult to understand the motives of school shooters and other mass killers but their intent is clear. To stay alive whilst killing as many as possible. Assault rifles allow this. The police in Texas were clearly reluctant to interevene in a situtation where they were outgunned.
Where action has been taken to prevent access to such weapons it has been shown to eliminate it.Edited by oddman on Friday 27th May 13:30
NMNeil said:
China has banned guns for many years, but it's made little difference to school mass attacks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_Ch...
The most disturbing was in 2019. "More than 50 people, almost all of them young children, were hospitalized in southwest China on Tuesday after a man broke into a kindergarten and sprayed them with a corrosive chemical as “revenge on society.”
And if you can't get a gun here in the US, just like the UK they turn to knives.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/multiple-s...
And every single member of PH is able to get one of these, so should they be banned?
https://www.dw.com/en/us-car-rams-into-wisconsin-c...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6953703/D...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/...
So don't blame the tool used or how easy the tool is to obtain, blame the person who used the tool or better still, find out why some people have gone mad and fix that.
So we need more guns then. Perhaps we could give guns to the guns in case the guns turn out to be the problem and not people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_Ch...
The most disturbing was in 2019. "More than 50 people, almost all of them young children, were hospitalized in southwest China on Tuesday after a man broke into a kindergarten and sprayed them with a corrosive chemical as “revenge on society.”
And if you can't get a gun here in the US, just like the UK they turn to knives.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/multiple-s...
And every single member of PH is able to get one of these, so should they be banned?
https://www.dw.com/en/us-car-rams-into-wisconsin-c...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6953703/D...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/...
So don't blame the tool used or how easy the tool is to obtain, blame the person who used the tool or better still, find out why some people have gone mad and fix that.
WCZ said:
that's shocking really, terrible from the police
Yes, but the Police shouldn't have to be put into that position. I suspect that their all-round training isn't up to the same rigour that many UK firearms officers undergo either, but will almost certainly look gung ho. NRA types require these people (and would like teachers to do it too) to be "good guys with guns", but they are just ordinary people and it isn't a reliable way to stop schoolchildren being murdered in large numbers by someone determined to do it, with readily accessible, off the shelf, semi-automatic guns and ammo.
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