Notre Dame on fire - looks pretty serious

[TTmonkey]

red_slr said:

Ahh yes the houses of parliament renovations.... should be a national scandal. They are probably going to spend well over £5Bn in the end. What the hell are they spending that on!!

They could probably spend less by knocking it down and starting from scratch!

however, its a big job and therefore will cost a lot. The building is full of hundreds of rooms and offices, with electric, plumbing and other issues (its full of asbestos for a start!). Its all grade one listed too so no corners can be cut, no cheap other solutions put in place.

Additionally, Notre Dame is built from hard rock, the Palace of Westminster is built from limestone. Its literally dissolving away faster than they can currently repair it with BAU type restoration work.

Additionally, there's the cost of moving parliament somewhere else for the duration of the works - I don't know if they've chosen somewhere else yet?


Notre Dame is a big empty space in comparison, with virtually no other infrastructure. They need a new roof, and some other repairs, but it looks like the fabric of the building is still OK by and large.

[Abbott]

Gad-Westy said:

KTF said:

Am not sure why this is even worthy of a mention? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47947745

People love a bandwagon I guess...

I just don't get this. The pic of the girl and her dad barely even features Notre Dame.

"This is going to become THAT photo," Michelle Bhasin commented.

If the bloke and child are French then there is a very low chance that they will be Simply found on the twittersphere as most French I know have a lower social media presence than anyone

[Art0ir]

Colonel D said:

If the Catholic church believed the nonsense they preached, or actually gave a f**k about their precious artifacts wouldn't they want to help restore the place that housed them, back to it's original glory and restore the faith of the people? No they Catholic church only give a f**k when it comes to young boys.

Since the enlightenment the Catholic Church has done more to preserve historical buildings and artifacts than almost any other organisation. One of the biggest collection of Pagan treasures and artworks resides in the Vatican museum.

Sincerely, an atheist attempting to view life through a somewhat nuanced lense.

[amusingduck]

Gad-Westy said:

KTF said:

Am not sure why this is even worthy of a mention? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47947745

People love a bandwagon I guess...

I just don't get this. The pic of the girl and her dad barely even features Notre Dame.

"This is going to become THAT photo," Michelle Bhasin commented.

The proper picture does -



At least it's some upbeat news for a change

[mcdjl]

Colonel D said:

If the Catholic church believed the nonsense they preached, or actually gave a f**k about their precious artifacts wouldn't they want to help restore the place that housed them, back to it's original glory and restore the faith of the people? No they Catholic church only give a f**k when it comes to young boys.

So if the Pope fronts up the entire cost and gives the E300m to the poor will you start believing and going to Catholic mass each week? If not how exactly will it 'restore the faith'?

[Schmeeky]

Another great non-satirical piece from NewsThump.

[Colonel D]

mcdjl said:

So if the Pope fronts up the entire cost and gives the E300m to the poor will you start believing and going to Catholic mass each week? If not how exactly will it 'restore the faith'?

I'm born and raised Catholic, it won't restore my faith, but to those who will question God's will over it happening wouldn't they like to see the church doing it's part to bring back the reminders of their faith. Not only to restore their faith but also spread the message and beliefs of Christ in the hope to convert more people. Isn't that the reason to have those religious pieces on display?

[Ayahuasca]

Could the same thing happen to St Paul’s?

Or was ND unusual in the amount of wood it contained?

Yes I am aware that the original St Paul’s burned down in 1666 and was rebuilt.

[Trevatanus]

TTmonkey said:

Additionally, there's the cost of moving parliament somewhere else for the duration of the works - I don't know if they've chosen somewhere else yet?

Bramshill Police College I think is setup as a designated Temporary Parliament should the need ever arise.

[RedWhiteMonkey]

Ayahuasca said:

Could the same thing happen to St Paul’s?

Or was ND unusual in the amount of wood it contained?

Yes I am aware that the original St Paul’s burned down in 1666 and was rebuilt.

Yes, it could happen to pretty much any building. There is plenty of wood inside St Pauls.

[Vanden Saab]

Trevatanus said:

TTmonkey said:

Additionally, there's the cost of moving parliament somewhere else for the duration of the works - I don't know if they've chosen somewhere else yet?

Bramshill Police College I think is setup as a designated Temporary Parliament should the need ever arise.

It also has a lake with some fking great pike in it...

[Halmyre]

Trevatanus said:

TTmonkey said:

Additionally, there's the cost of moving parliament somewhere else for the duration of the works - I don't know if they've chosen somewhere else yet?

Bramshill Police College I think is setup as a designated Temporary Parliament should the need ever arise.

How about Stormont? I gather it's not currently in use.

Failing that, Rockall.

[mcdjl]

Colonel D said:

I'm born and raised Catholic, it won't restore my faith, but to those who will question God's will over it happening wouldn't they like to see the church doing it's part to bring back the reminders of their faith. Not only to restore their faith but also spread the message and beliefs of Christ in the hope to convert more people. Isn't that the reason to have those religious pieces on display?

Same here. I'd hope/expect that the RC church will make some contribution but equally don't think it likely that the church will shout about how much it is: 'that money could have been better spent on the poor'. I doubt many/any people going to see the cathedral/relics will be converted by doing so, they're going to see the historical piece as much as the religious one....while i was wowed by the place (and to be fair most large old cathedrals) so far they haven't done much for my faith (or lack of).

[Gad-Westy]

amusingduck said:

Gad-Westy said:

KTF said:

Am not sure why this is even worthy of a mention? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47947745

People love a bandwagon I guess...

I just don't get this. The pic of the girl and her dad barely even features Notre Dame.

"This is going to become THAT photo," Michelle Bhasin commented.

The proper picture does -



At least it's some upbeat news for a change

That's more like it.

[Colonel D]

mcdjl said:

Same here. I'd hope/expect that the RC church will make some contribution but equally don't think it likely that the church will shout about how much it is: 'that money could have been better spent on the poor'. I doubt many/any people going to see the cathedral/relics will be converted by doing so, they're going to see the historical piece as much as the religious one....while i was wowed by the place (and to be fair most large old cathedrals) so far they haven't done much for my faith (or lack of).

I'd have to disagree about the the thing about converting more people. The usual spin by the church is disasters like this is it happens to test our faith, the reason it's only a test is because it can be rebuilt. The reason the church doesn't pay for it all is because the donations from other countries will bring the people closer. After rebuilding and reopening to the public it will bring more people in and see those pieces of great importance and will bring more followers of Christ. I'd almost guarantee that's the general message you will hear in mass on Sunday, and being used by priests up and down the country (Ireland) today as people visit the church to talk about it. We're meant to blindly follow this nonsense and not question God's will, everything happens for a reason and that is to bring us all together as one.

[Petrus1983]

They're upto 400m euros between 3 beneficiaries - not a bad sub 24 hour whip round.Also see the 3 main stained glass windows survived (probably need some newspaper and vinegar).

[mcdjl]

Colonel D said:

I'd have to disagree about the the thing about converting more people. The usual spin by the church is disasters like this is it happens to test our faith, the reason it's only a test is because it can be rebuilt. The reason the church doesn't pay for it all is because the donations from other countries will bring the people closer. After rebuilding and reopening to the public it will bring more people in and see those pieces of great importance and will bring more followers of Christ. I'd almost guarantee that's the general message you will hear in mass on Sunday, and being used by priests up and down the country (Ireland) today as people visit the church to talk about it. We're meant to blindly follow this nonsense and not question God's will, everything happens for a reason and that is to bring us all together as one.

I agree...i can almost hear it being said. I only disagree in that the people the priests by and large will be saying it will already have the faith (or there because of family/keeping parents happy type reasons). This type of test will strengthen the faith of existing believers, but not imho bring (many) new ones.

[hidetheelephants]

p1stonhead said:

Porcelain Ponderer said:

p1stonhead said:

spaximus said:

This was a beautiful building and even if you are none religious the workmanship in these places is special and should be preserved where possible.

Macron is correct they will need international help, not for the money, as I am sure they will take any offered, but in the skills to do this sort of work. How many skilled stone masons are there, how many hand carvers of wood to the standard this was done to and the many other skills needed, that is where this will be a huge issue for them.

The time will be many years to do this, but remember York Minster, Windsor Castle all got damaged and are now restored fully, the minster took 35 years, so this will be as large a task if not more.

If this is an error during restoration work, some insurance company is going to be very nervous this morning I would guess.

As someone who employs such trades quite often, the ones at the highest levels of competency and quality are very hard to come by indeed. And when you find them, by god do you pay for them.

Out of curiosity, do stone masons work on a day rate or is it per job? And what would a top one charge?

When we employ them its usually for a pre-determined job so its per item of stone depending on what it is - ashlar, columns, cornice, acroterium, etc etc they all cost differing amounts depending on how complex they are to fit. Some individual pieces are in the tonnes each so access and lifting is extremely expensive. Plus its SLOOOOOOOOOW work most of the time as 3-4 fitters generally have to locate the stone in place to the millimeter for up to say half an hour whilst its fixed in place. This is for each piece while it hangs from a crane which therefore cant be utilised elsewhere.

Day rate for a decent on the tools guy can be around £500 but in a very rough pricing method you can work it out by the m3 of stone installed @ around £1200-1500. Last job I did had about 400m3 and install was circa £600k and materials about the same again (Anstrude - French Limestone).

We generally get everything cut in the factory though which incidentially is usually in France, then we get the finished pieces shipped over to go straight up.

Something like Paris would be much more expensive, as we generally use modern methods of fixing where possible i.e big stainless steel brackets. I highly doubt they would be allowed on the restoration.

Otter Smacker of this parish trained as a stonemason; hopefully he'll offer an opinion at some point.

[Colonel D]

mcdjl said:

I agree...i can almost hear it being said. I only disagree in that the people the priests by and large will be saying it will already have the faith (or there because of family/keeping parents happy type reasons). This type of test will strengthen the faith of existing believers, but not imho bring (many) new ones.

You're right in saying the people speaking to a priest about it will already have faith in God, but there's still a few people that will question it, and that's usually the way it's worded out to make them feel better about such a terrible event and still hold God close in their heart. Usually followed by the "you only see one set of footprints in the sand because I carried you through those times of need" story.

[yellowjack]

Trevatanus said:

TTmonkey said:

Additionally, there's the cost of moving parliament somewhere else for the duration of the works - I don't know if they've chosen somewhere else yet?

Bramshill Police College I think is setup as a designated Temporary Parliament should the need ever arise.

I don't know for sure, but suspect that another alternative would be needed now. Bramshill is no longer a Police College, and has been sold for development. I'm not sure what kind of development, as a hotel has been mooted for the "big house". but Wiki suggests plans for housing (350 of) for the site, and that would tie in with the "register your interest" sign I saw at the entrance just last night. It's been closed as a college since 2015, and the sports pitches on the edge of the site are slowly going back to nature. I'm always tempted to cycle up the drive for a sneaky peak when I'm passing, but haven't done so yet. A chunk of the estate is now The Pheasantry Estate, and I suspect it's run as a game shooting estate judging by the secure perimeter fence and 'keep out' signs warning of shooting taking place.

ETA: http://thesteepletimes.com/opulence-splendour/bram...

It looks like it has "permission" to become a 57,000 sq ft single dwelling again. Article talks of the developer only having bought it to get hold of the development opportunity offered by building on other parts of the estate and packaging bits up for sale individually. £10,000,000 to anyone what wants it, plus an estimate of another £10,000,000 to get it back into shape again to live the kind of lifestyle that millionaires like to enjoy.

Edited by yellowjack on Tuesday 16th April 16:13