First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
Discussion
Randy Winkman said:
I agree with you about the language used to present any argument. But I'm still very firmly of the view that we need to protect women's sport and ensure that competition is fair. And that probably means excluding trans-women from most female sports. It's tough - but I think that elite sport needs to be kept separate from "normal life". eg toilets, clothes, pronouns, job opportunities etc
As I keep saying everyday life all is fine, sport not so much because there is a risk. Very few trans men would choose to compete with men and would likely be uncompetitive and run the risk of injury the same is the case when trans women play womens sport. So seperate categories is fair and safe. Hell laurel hubbard could win gold in the trans games.How would changing room arrangements work in this scenario, if someone who identifies as a female but hasn't had realignment surgery and doesn't look female, would the other female athletes be accepting of someone in their changing room because they identify as a woman ?
Am sure there are easy ways round that but I would imagine that if you identify as a woman you would feel entitled to use the female facilities.
Try it at the local leisure centre, signing the register in 3,2....
Am sure there are easy ways round that but I would imagine that if you identify as a woman you would feel entitled to use the female facilities.
Try it at the local leisure centre, signing the register in 3,2....
ZedLeg said:
As has happened a few times in this thread your opinion appears to have been swayed by what amounts to propaganda from the anti trans movement.
There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues. It's actually incredibly hard to start transitioning in this country. You either have to sit on an NHS waiting list for years or have the thousands of pounds it costs to pay for it yourself. There are currently no facilities in the UK for F to M bottom surgery. The high suicide rates for trans people are due to a number of factors and can in no way be generalised down to people who were talked into transitioning and didn't really want to.
There is also no movement to shame lesbians who would rather not have sex with someone who still has a penis. Weirdly, trans women don't want to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. There may be some individuals who have stated sentiments to that effect but imo it's mostly an urban legend that's been used to paint trans women as predators.
You presumably have a strong interest in the subject.There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues. It's actually incredibly hard to start transitioning in this country. You either have to sit on an NHS waiting list for years or have the thousands of pounds it costs to pay for it yourself. There are currently no facilities in the UK for F to M bottom surgery. The high suicide rates for trans people are due to a number of factors and can in no way be generalised down to people who were talked into transitioning and didn't really want to.
There is also no movement to shame lesbians who would rather not have sex with someone who still has a penis. Weirdly, trans women don't want to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. There may be some individuals who have stated sentiments to that effect but imo it's mostly an urban legend that's been used to paint trans women as predators.
I sympathise with the difficulties faced by some people in this matter and try to be acepting of people as far as reasonably practical.
None of the above addresses the issue of participant categories in sports, though.
Gecko1978 said:
Randy Winkman said:
I agree with you about the language used to present any argument. But I'm still very firmly of the view that we need to protect women's sport and ensure that competition is fair. And that probably means excluding trans-women from most female sports. It's tough - but I think that elite sport needs to be kept separate from "normal life". eg toilets, clothes, pronouns, job opportunities etc
As I keep saying everyday life all is fine, sport not so much because there is a risk. Very few trans men would choose to compete with men and would likely be uncompetitive and run the risk of injury the same is the case when trans women play womens sport. So seperate categories is fair and safe. Hell laurel hubbard could win gold in the trans games.ZedLeg said:
As has happened a few times in this thread your opinion appears to have been swayed by what amounts to propaganda from the anti trans movement.
There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues. It's actually incredibly hard to start transitioning in this country. You either have to sit on an NHS waiting list for years or have the thousands of pounds it costs to pay for it yourself. There are currently no facilities in the UK for F to M bottom surgery. The high suicide rates for trans people are due to a number of factors and can in no way be generalised down to people who were talked into transitioning and didn't really want to.
There is also no movement to shame lesbians who would rather not have sex with someone who still has a penis. Weirdly, trans women don't want to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. There may be some individuals who have stated sentiments to that effect but imo it's mostly an urban legend that's been used to paint trans women as predators.
You're probably right, we in the UK, spend far too much time concerning ourselves in US culture debate, but the reality is often where they lead we follow. This book, whilst not uncontroversial, has opened many peoples eyes to what is occurring in the US, and she's been on Rogan's podcast so literally millions of people have read it or are aware of her work. There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues. It's actually incredibly hard to start transitioning in this country. You either have to sit on an NHS waiting list for years or have the thousands of pounds it costs to pay for it yourself. There are currently no facilities in the UK for F to M bottom surgery. The high suicide rates for trans people are due to a number of factors and can in no way be generalised down to people who were talked into transitioning and didn't really want to.
There is also no movement to shame lesbians who would rather not have sex with someone who still has a penis. Weirdly, trans women don't want to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. There may be some individuals who have stated sentiments to that effect but imo it's mostly an urban legend that's been used to paint trans women as predators.
It's frightening if true.
J4CKO said:
How would changing room arrangements work in this scenario, if someone who identifies as a female but hasn't had realignment surgery and doesn't look female, would the other female athletes be accepting of someone in their changing room because they identify as a woman ?
Am sure there are easy ways round that but I would imagine that if you identify as a woman you would feel entitled to use the female facilities.
Try it at the local leisure centre, signing the register in 3,2....
Thousands of trans women use women's changing rooms and bathrooms every day. It was never an issue until the recent uptick in anti trans rhetoric. Now not just trans women but more masculine cis women are being questioned and attacked in bathrooms and changing rooms. Weird how that happens.Am sure there are easy ways round that but I would imagine that if you identify as a woman you would feel entitled to use the female facilities.
Try it at the local leisure centre, signing the register in 3,2....
chrispmartha said:
Maybe because it's not a left v right issue or left V left issue, I know you see everything in a binary way (no pun intended).
To the vast, vast majority of people in this country there are 2 sexes and 2 genders. Neither of which can be changed. I've never known anyone who isn't loony left seriously discuss any of these topics as credible / real issues.MC Bodge said:
ZedLeg said:
As has happened a few times in this thread your opinion appears to have been swayed by what amounts to propaganda from the anti trans movement.
There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues. It's actually incredibly hard to start transitioning in this country. You either have to sit on an NHS waiting list for years or have the thousands of pounds it costs to pay for it yourself. There are currently no facilities in the UK for F to M bottom surgery. The high suicide rates for trans people are due to a number of factors and can in no way be generalised down to people who were talked into transitioning and didn't really want to.
There is also no movement to shame lesbians who would rather not have sex with someone who still has a penis. Weirdly, trans women don't want to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. There may be some individuals who have stated sentiments to that effect but imo it's mostly an urban legend that's been used to paint trans women as predators.
You presumably have a strong interest in the subject.There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues. It's actually incredibly hard to start transitioning in this country. You either have to sit on an NHS waiting list for years or have the thousands of pounds it costs to pay for it yourself. There are currently no facilities in the UK for F to M bottom surgery. The high suicide rates for trans people are due to a number of factors and can in no way be generalised down to people who were talked into transitioning and didn't really want to.
There is also no movement to shame lesbians who would rather not have sex with someone who still has a penis. Weirdly, trans women don't want to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. There may be some individuals who have stated sentiments to that effect but imo it's mostly an urban legend that's been used to paint trans women as predators.
I sympathise with the difficulties faced by some people in this matter and try to be acepting of people as far as reasonably practical.
None of the above addresses the issue of participant categories in sports, though.
chrispmartha said:
Trackdayer said:
We have a situation where some lefties are viciously attacking other lefties. TERFs vs the LGBTQ+ brigade.
It's absolutely brilliantly entertaining.
Maybe because it's not a left v right issue or left V left issue, I know you see everything in a binary way (no pun intended).It's absolutely brilliantly entertaining.
There is no defense to wanting trans-men competing in female sport given their unfair natural advantage, other than people don't want to be seem agreeing
with Daily Mail/Sun readers.
GroundZero said:
In a free opinion society in which we largely are, I can hold the opinion that individuals who think they are a 'woman' whilst they are a biological male have mental health issues.
It’s listed in the DSM as a mental health condition. Those trying to claim otherwise need a good argument as to why it’s significantly different from anorexia, which is a very similar condition regarding lack of comfort in one’s own body.I’ve also had women ask why it is any different to a white person “blacking up”. Both are cases of someone from a more privileged group acting as though they are a member of a more oppressed group.
Why is it to be celebrated when Eddie Izzard says that he is a woman yet condemned when Rachel Dolezal says she’s black?
ZedLeg said:
MC Bodge said:
ZedLeg said:
As has happened a few times in this thread your opinion appears to have been swayed by what amounts to propaganda from the anti trans movement.
There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues. It's actually incredibly hard to start transitioning in this country. You either have to sit on an NHS waiting list for years or have the thousands of pounds it costs to pay for it yourself. There are currently no facilities in the UK for F to M bottom surgery. The high suicide rates for trans people are due to a number of factors and can in no way be generalised down to people who were talked into transitioning and didn't really want to.
There is also no movement to shame lesbians who would rather not have sex with someone who still has a penis. Weirdly, trans women don't want to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. There may be some individuals who have stated sentiments to that effect but imo it's mostly an urban legend that's been used to paint trans women as predators.
You presumably have a strong interest in the subject.There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues. It's actually incredibly hard to start transitioning in this country. You either have to sit on an NHS waiting list for years or have the thousands of pounds it costs to pay for it yourself. There are currently no facilities in the UK for F to M bottom surgery. The high suicide rates for trans people are due to a number of factors and can in no way be generalised down to people who were talked into transitioning and didn't really want to.
There is also no movement to shame lesbians who would rather not have sex with someone who still has a penis. Weirdly, trans women don't want to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. There may be some individuals who have stated sentiments to that effect but imo it's mostly an urban legend that's been used to paint trans women as predators.
I sympathise with the difficulties faced by some people in this matter and try to be acepting of people as far as reasonably practical.
None of the above addresses the issue of participant categories in sports, though.
Trackdayer said:
chrispmartha said:
Maybe because it's not a left v right issue or left V left issue, I know you see everything in a binary way (no pun intended).
To the vast, vast majority of people in this country there are 2 sexes and 2 genders. Neither of which can be changed. I've never known anyone who isn't loony left seriously discuss any of these topics as credible / real issues.'loony left' the 80s called, they want their pejorative back
chrispmartha said:
But the thing is you say most agree, where is that from, many polls suggest otherwise, and it's mainly men who disagree, women tend to be more accepting of trans people (again that's from the limited polling).
I am relying on a level of trust that society does not discard science when a person decides that they literally become the opposite sex just because they feel like it. I would hope any amount of polling would show that to be the case, no matter how it was worded in the questionnaires.chrispmartha said:
As for the mentally Ill 'circular argument' I disagree that it's circular, - some Trans People may well have mental health issues, just like anyone else, the difference being Im not making a blanket statement like you saying Trans = Mental Illness, can you not see how that could be highly offensive to Trans People?
I am just one person with an opinion. Others are free to form theirs. With that said yes I can see how an individual who does not agree with an opinion can choose to take 'offense' to it. But this is the nature of a free society - of course within limits of consequences.But as I am not voicing an opinion to cause violence, terrorism, hate or such like towards another party then such comments should be allowed if we are to have a debate on such subjects. My angle by saying it is a mental health problem is not from an angle of hate, it is an angle of simple humanitarian concern. Not only for the individual but also how it impacts the mindset of others who have conflicts in their heads about such issues. As mentioned already, there is worryingly high suicide rate within those that become conflicted with what sex they think they are. My position with my opinion is that I think such people deserve more medical attention rather than a society trying to promote something that they may not understand. Because as you rightly point out many commenting on this are "unqualified" regarding mental health.
RobbieTheTruth said:
For a lot of people it probably is.
There is no defense to wanting trans-men competing in female sport given their unfair natural advantage, other than people don't want to be seem agreeing
with Daily Mail/Sun readers.
That could well be the case.There is no defense to wanting trans-men competing in female sport given their unfair natural advantage, other than people don't want to be seem agreeing
with Daily Mail/Sun readers.
I wouldn't say that I often agree with Daily Mail/Sun/NP&E readers myself, but in this case I may do, albeit probably for different reasons.
Northernboy said:
GroundZero said:
In a free opinion society in which we largely are, I can hold the opinion that individuals who think they are a 'woman' whilst they are a biological male have mental health issues.
It’s listed in the DSM as a mental health condition. Those trying to claim otherwise need a good argument as to why it’s significantly different from anorexia, which is a very similar condition regarding lack of comfort in one’s own body.I’ve also had women ask why it is any different to a white person “blacking up”. Both are cases of someone from a more privileged group acting as though they are a member of a more oppressed group.
Why is it to be celebrated when Eddie Izzard says that he is a woman yet condemned when Rachel Dolezal says she’s black?
chrispmartha said:
You have no idea what the vast majority of people think.
Actually I do. Just have a read of any of the comments on "trans" news articles or Facebook posts.95% of the replies are along the lines of "there are only 2 genders"
Then there's a small number of people with coloured hair raging to the contrary.
This is partly why Corbyn wasn't elected by the way. Because his party are in the tiny minority who believe in this stuff.
ZedLeg said:
Prove it.
Would you mind elaborating on what your connection to Trans-gender is?I have seen a lot of your posts about it, and you obviously feel strongly about it, but you appear to have ducked questions about the fairness of trans-women (of varying states of transition) competing against women.
MC Bodge said:
ZedLeg said:
MC Bodge said:
ZedLeg said:
As has happened a few times in this thread your opinion appears to have been swayed by what amounts to propaganda from the anti trans movement.
There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues. It's actually incredibly hard to start transitioning in this country. You either have to sit on an NHS waiting list for years or have the thousands of pounds it costs to pay for it yourself. There are currently no facilities in the UK for F to M bottom surgery. The high suicide rates for trans people are due to a number of factors and can in no way be generalised down to people who were talked into transitioning and didn't really want to.
There is also no movement to shame lesbians who would rather not have sex with someone who still has a penis. Weirdly, trans women don't want to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. There may be some individuals who have stated sentiments to that effect but imo it's mostly an urban legend that's been used to paint trans women as predators.
You presumably have a strong interest in the subject.There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues. It's actually incredibly hard to start transitioning in this country. You either have to sit on an NHS waiting list for years or have the thousands of pounds it costs to pay for it yourself. There are currently no facilities in the UK for F to M bottom surgery. The high suicide rates for trans people are due to a number of factors and can in no way be generalised down to people who were talked into transitioning and didn't really want to.
There is also no movement to shame lesbians who would rather not have sex with someone who still has a penis. Weirdly, trans women don't want to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. There may be some individuals who have stated sentiments to that effect but imo it's mostly an urban legend that's been used to paint trans women as predators.
I sympathise with the difficulties faced by some people in this matter and try to be acepting of people as far as reasonably practical.
None of the above addresses the issue of participant categories in sports, though.
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