Brexit Poll 1/2/16

[PRTVR]

V8 Fettler said:

Has either side issued a credible business plan yet?

I would be interested if the EU has a costed plan if the UK leaves, they will have to make major changes if the lose the second biggest contributor.

[loose cannon]

Hopefully we will be out before the Italy bail out's get going

[ALT F4]

In terms of voting for our UK government - in exercising our democracy.
The one question I think that should reside on everyone's mind when they go to the referendum voting booth is :

"Do I want my future vote to count for anything?"

If you do then the only option is to vote 'out' of the EU.


Voting 'in' would mean your future vote(s) for the UK government is meaningless, as laws/rules and other implications on UK society will be governed by an un-elected bunch of foreigners sat in Brussels.

CMD has not created or offering a "reformed EU" by any stretch of the imagination.

[Esseesse]

FiF said:

Well further to the issue of this legally binding agreement that Cameron claims is a treaty, but turns out not to be a treaty and certainly isn't an EU treaty, and certainly isn't irreversible, it also appears that he's been warned about the reality of things.

From the Independent on Sunday.

IoS said:

It came as doubts emerged over Mr Cameron’s EU reform package. The IoS can reveal that the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, warned the Prime Minister that his pledge to change the EU treaties to lock in his reforms may never happen.

A leaked diplomatic report of the Brussels talks reveals that Ms Merkel told fellow EU leaders not to be overly concerned about Mr Cameron’s demand for treaty changes because “on the question of amending the Treaties, we do not know if we ever will have a change of them”. The revelation undermines a key claim of Mr Cameron’s renegotiation.

Pants on still on fire Davey boy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-r...

I've often heard the EU Constitution Treaty of Lisbon described as being 'self amending'. Thus whenever I've heard a politician promise a referendum in the event of any further treaty/change I've cynically suspected that thanks to the last one no more would ever be needed.

[don4l]

Esseesse said:

I've often heard the EU Constitution Treaty of Lisbon described as being 'self amending'. Thus whenever I've heard a politician promise a referendum in the event of any further treaty/change I've cynically suspected that thanks to the last one no more would ever be needed.

I was just thinking the same thing.

An In vote would be an enormous boost to the federalists. The pace of "Ever closer union" would accelerate.

[turbobloke]

don4l said:

Esseesse said:

I've often heard the EU Constitution Treaty of Lisbon described as being 'self amending'. Thus whenever I've heard a politician promise a referendum in the event of any further treaty/change I've cynically suspected that thanks to the last one no more would ever be needed.

I was just thinking the same thing.

An In vote would be an enormous boost to the federalists. The pace of "Ever closer union" would accelerate.

But we'd be OK as CMD has got us out of all that ever closer onion malarkey

[PHCorvette]

Funkycoldribena said:

PHCorvette said:

<lose will to live>
mumsnet
</lose will to live>

I know,I know,but it makes great comedy before bedtime reading about all these wives that think their husband's are going to be deported.

You sire owe me one spleen. Not even a 1/4 of the page down and I want nothing more than to nuke them all from orbit. Don't ever sully this board with a link to mumsnet ever again!

[turbobloke]

PHCorvette said:

Funkycoldribena said:

PHCorvette said:

<lose will to live>
mumsnet
</lose will to live>

I know,I know,but it makes great comedy before bedtime reading about all these wives that think their husband's are going to be deported.

You sire owe me one spleen. Not even a 1/4 of the page down and I want nothing more than to nuke them all from orbit. Don't ever sully this board with a link to mumsnet ever again!

Jeez you're right. Somebody over there in dire need of a nosewiper is worrying about ingredients in her eurosausage. They can go out alone and vote even so.

[Digga]

loose cannon said:

Hopefully we will be out before the Italy bail out's get going

Don't bring your uncomfortable truths into the debate.

When that happens, French banks are going to be in dire need of help.

[turbobloke]

Digga said:

loose cannon said:

Hopefully we will be out before the Italy bail out's get going

Don't bring your uncomfortable truths into the debate.

When that happens, French banks are going to be in dire need of help.

But hasn't CMD said we're not paying any more for that kind of nonsense if we vote In? He's markng every spreadsheet pixel of our net contribution just to be sure and of course his word is his bond.

Then again think of the bail-in.

[darrenw]

I was tempted to start a new thread on this but (a) I've never started a thread in all my time lurking here and (b) I'm sure people will complain that there are enough threads about all this already... But does anyone have any links to support either in or out from a petrolhead perspective? If we stay in, are we more or less likely to have to keep mileage logs and things whenever we take an old car out for a drive? (I think this is how it works for certain classes of car in Germany?). Is our collective passion for mad modified cars likely to be extinguished as everything is heading toward becoming more and more regulated in favour of throwing old stuff away to prop up the new? Will our MOT tests (And BIVA/IVA etc) become "harmonised" with an overall EU system? Noise regulations at race tracks?

I know there are no definite answers. But educated and informed opinions are welcome...

I'm voting out either way, no question. But answers to these questions and others like it may be of help to others who are undecided

[funkyrobot]

darrenw said:

I was tempted to start a new thread on this but (a) I've never started a thread in all my time lurking here and (b) I'm sure people will complain that there are enough threads about all this already... But does anyone have any links to support either in or out from a petrolhead perspective? If we stay in, are we more or less likely to have to keep mileage logs and things whenever we take an old car out for a drive? (I think this is how it works for certain classes of car in Germany?). Is our collective passion for mad modified cars likely to be extinguished as everything is heading toward becoming more and more regulated in favour of throwing old stuff away to prop up the new? Will our MOT tests (And BIVA/IVA etc) become "harmonised" with an overall EU system? Noise regulations at race tracks?

I know there are no definite answers. But educated and informed opinions are welcome...

I'm voting out either way, no question. But answers to these questions and others like it may be of help to others who are undecided

RAC have said petrol prices will rise if we leave.

[vanordinaire]

turbobloke said:

PHCorvette said:

Funkycoldribena said:

PHCorvette said:

<lose will to live>
mumsnet
</lose will to live>

I know,I know,but it makes great comedy before bedtime reading about all these wives that think their husband's are going to be deported.

You sire owe me one spleen. Not even a 1/4 of the page down and I want nothing more than to nuke them all from orbit. Don't ever sully this board with a link to mumsnet ever again!

Jeez you're right. Somebody over there in dire need of a nosewiper is worrying about ingredients in her eurosausage. They can go out alone and vote even so.

Can't we just make the ballot paper a little bit 'technical', then they won't vote or at least will ask their husbands' advice first?

[turbobloke]

Smiley or no smiley that's dangerous talk that is

[don'tbesilly]

funkyrobot said:

darrenw said:

I was tempted to start a new thread on this but (a) I've never started a thread in all my time lurking here and (b) I'm sure people will complain that there are enough threads about all this already... But does anyone have any links to support either in or out from a petrolhead perspective? If we stay in, are we more or less likely to have to keep mileage logs and things whenever we take an old car out for a drive? (I think this is how it works for certain classes of car in Germany?). Is our collective passion for mad modified cars likely to be extinguished as everything is heading toward becoming more and more regulated in favour of throwing old stuff away to prop up the new? Will our MOT tests (And BIVA/IVA etc) become "harmonised" with an overall EU system? Noise regulations at race tracks?

I know there are no definite answers. But educated and informed opinions are welcome...

I'm voting out either way, no question. But answers to these questions and others like it may be of help to others who are undecided

RAC have said petrol prices will rise if we leave.

I think you'll find it was that charming twerp from the AA that came up with that nonsense.

The RAC called the twerp out on it.

Perhaps Edmund King should go on multiple benders and join the 'alternative' AA, he might start talking sense!

[a311]

I'm leaning towards voting out but really need to educate myself on the pros and cons of leaving.

My own simplistic view is that Europe can't work in it's current guise, to really work IMO it would need to be a federal state much like the US however this won't work due difference in culture, wealth, and language across the member countries.

What we have at the moment is a hybrid that doesn't work.

[sealtt]

If you haven't seen already, it's interesting to look through the EU revenue and expenditure - especially by country, lots of info how it all breaks down.

2014: http://ec.europa.eu/budget/figures/interactive/ind...
2007-2013: http://ec.europa.eu/budget/figures/2007-2013/index...


For reference, UK net cost of EU membership in 2014, approx GBP4bn, in comparison to the 2014 budget below:

Department / Expenditure (£bn)
Social protection / 222
Health / 140
Education / 98
Debt interest / 53
Defence / 38
Public order and safety / 32
Personal social services / 31
Housing and Environment / 25
Transport / 23
Industry, agriculture and employment / 17
Other / 53
Total Government spending / 732

[turbobloke]

sealtt said:

If you haven't seen already, it's interesting to look through the EU revenue and expenditure - especially by country, lots of info how it all breaks down.

2014: http://ec.europa.eu/budget/figures/interactive/ind...
2007-2013: http://ec.europa.eu/budget/figures/2007-2013/index...


For reference, UK net cost of EU membership in 2014, approx GBP4bn, in comparison to the 2014 budget below:

Department / Expenditure (£bn)
Social protection / 222
Health / 140
Education / 98
Debt interest / 53
Defence / 38
Public order and safety / 32
Personal social services / 31
Housing and Environment / 25
Transport / 23
Industry, agriculture and employment / 17
Other / 53
Total Government spending / 732

If so...

The NHS overspend is approaching £2bn rapidly:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34879194

That leaves something for a small tax break to incentivise effort somehow.

And that's ignoring indirect benefits

[ALT F4]

I think the whole economics of the EU has changed too much on what it set out to do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but each country pays in millions and millions of euros and pounds in to the 'EU pot'.
This money is a way of making the richer EU nations pay to 'upgrade' the poorer EU nations so that all can reach a common setting. (And keep the peace).
(ie. one reason why Spain has a relatively new motorway network and related infrastructure for example.)

In return the EU sets out a 'friendly' trading environment between EU nations in order 'growth' can take place. And this is supposed to benefit the richer EU nations for their additional contributions towards the poorer countries.

BUT.... over recent years the growth element has been very much lacking, and the return of benefit to the richer countries is not materialising.

Also the nature of business and the relative profitability of businesses has changed since the outset.
So the idea of particular EU members tailoring their business sectors so that they didn't compete with other EU nations has benefited some whilst harming others over the years.

Leaving the EU would be good for the UK to re-start investment in manufacturing and farming for example. As we wouldn't be restricted by internal EU competition from Germany and France.

I think the EU has become too much of an empire with yet still more plans to expand in to ever more dodgy regimes and conflicts, which would only mean the richer nations being asked for ever more increasing contributions for fewer returns.

[FiF]

Don't forget that only 9 nations support the remaining 19. Of those 9 nations there are some who are only just nett contributors, or whose contributions are relatively minor compared to the big hitters. Which in turn leads to finding that the EU is principally supported by merely a handful, being generous.

If Britain exited and all our payment ceased, unlikely, but say it did, then nations such as Italy, France and Spain would have to increase their contributions by a quarter maybe. Can you see those nations doing that, because I can't.

So would most of the burden fall on Germany? Would the German citizens support that after their recent experiences? Not convinced.