Discussion
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said:98elise said:
Owen is a part of that world. His far left views include killing, political "corrective facilities", removal of threats to a workers state.
Quoting him...
"In a workers' state, of course, Fascism would not have such soft treatment. Fascist propaganda would be banned. Fascists would have no participation in any elections. Fascist acts would be punished with death. Those people with illusions in Fascism would be sent to corrective facilities until they repent their beliefs. I think it would be sensible to deport all Fascist leaders to an offshore island prison somewhere, to prevent any becoming martyrs and to remove them as a threat to the workers' state. As Trotsky once said, if one cannot make a fascist repent its beliefs through reasonable argument, one should feel free to acquaint its head with the pavement."
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/marxist-lenini...
Owen, McDonnell and Corbyn all support violence towards political opponents.
Owen has also supported the IRA in the past, but he does claim to have changed his mind.
You've linked to something on a Yahoo list posted in 2000 and Owen Jones is 35 years old.Quoting him...
"In a workers' state, of course, Fascism would not have such soft treatment. Fascist propaganda would be banned. Fascists would have no participation in any elections. Fascist acts would be punished with death. Those people with illusions in Fascism would be sent to corrective facilities until they repent their beliefs. I think it would be sensible to deport all Fascist leaders to an offshore island prison somewhere, to prevent any becoming martyrs and to remove them as a threat to the workers' state. As Trotsky once said, if one cannot make a fascist repent its beliefs through reasonable argument, one should feel free to acquaint its head with the pavement."
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/marxist-lenini...
Owen, McDonnell and Corbyn all support violence towards political opponents.
Owen has also supported the IRA in the past, but he does claim to have changed his mind.
The same account posted as early as April 1999 which I think would have made him 14 at the time.
Are are you sure it's the same Owen Jones?
https://order-order.com/2018/10/30/owen-jones-call...
98elise said:
Tryke3 said:
OO Beckton said:
Owen Jones stands with, and for, everyone and everything that is divisive in the Media. He is ideological companions of race-hustlers and professional victims like: Faiza Shaheen, David Lammy, Jonathan Liew, Dawn Butler, Reni Eddo-Lodge, Munroe Bergdorf, Kehinde Andrews, Marina Hyde, Sairo Rao... Every Marxist, antiwhite, feminist and misandrist on Twitter doing politics and activism... Owen is the lynch pin of the Left's most poisonous and spiteful journalism.
...Despite this, it's wrong that he's been physically attacked.
Soon as you use violence against your opponent, you've lost the argument and higher ground.
So you just hate blacks, gays and women that want to be heard ? Well done ...Despite this, it's wrong that he's been physically attacked.
Soon as you use violence against your opponent, you've lost the argument and higher ground.
Well done indeed.
98elise said:
Owen is a part of that world. His far left views include killing, political "corrective facilities", removal of threats to a workers state.
Quoting him...
"In a workers' state, of course, Fascism would not have such soft treatment. Fascist propaganda would be banned. Fascists would have no participation in any elections. Fascist acts would be punished with death. Those people with illusions in Fascism would be sent to corrective facilities until they repent their beliefs. I think it would be sensible to deport all Fascist leaders to an offshore island prison somewhere, to prevent any becoming martyrs and to remove them as a threat to the workers' state. As Trotsky once said, if one cannot make a fascist repent its beliefs through reasonable argument, one should feel free to acquaint its head with the pavement."
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/marxist-lenini...
Owen, McDonnell and Corbyn all support violence towards political opponents.
Owen has also supported the IRA in the past, but he does claim to have changed his mind.
I wasn’t aware of any of that.Quoting him...
"In a workers' state, of course, Fascism would not have such soft treatment. Fascist propaganda would be banned. Fascists would have no participation in any elections. Fascist acts would be punished with death. Those people with illusions in Fascism would be sent to corrective facilities until they repent their beliefs. I think it would be sensible to deport all Fascist leaders to an offshore island prison somewhere, to prevent any becoming martyrs and to remove them as a threat to the workers' state. As Trotsky once said, if one cannot make a fascist repent its beliefs through reasonable argument, one should feel free to acquaint its head with the pavement."
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/marxist-lenini...
Owen, McDonnell and Corbyn all support violence towards political opponents.
Owen has also supported the IRA in the past, but he does claim to have changed his mind.
The fact remains though that in a civilised, democracy we should never condone violence against people we disagree with. Otherwise we are reduced to their level.
banjowilly said:
This is pretty simple stuff. If you're gloating over someone whose politics you dislike getting a kicking, then there's something wrong with you.
You don't have to extend the logic very far to see where it leads, yet some of you are unable to do even that.
I condemn the attack completely, it is wrong. I can see why it may have happened because he seems to be quite obnoxious and that can result in scuffles in pubs, also he espouses extreme political views which can upset people. But again I condemn it. You don't have to extend the logic very far to see where it leads, yet some of you are unable to do even that.
98elise said:
I'm sceptical of the likes of Guido but fair enough, there are a few links and replies from Owen Jones that do suggest it may have been him.You can't defend what he said.
That said I'm also not sure something you said 20 years ago when you were 14 or 15 is all that relevant to someone taking a kicking today.
Go back to some of the things I thought and said in my younger days and I'd say I deserved a kicking back then.
bad company said:
98elise said:
Owen is a part of that world. His far left views include killing, political "corrective facilities", removal of threats to a workers state.
Quoting him...
"In a workers' state, of course, Fascism would not have such soft treatment. Fascist propaganda would be banned. Fascists would have no participation in any elections. Fascist acts would be punished with death. Those people with illusions in Fascism would be sent to corrective facilities until they repent their beliefs. I think it would be sensible to deport all Fascist leaders to an offshore island prison somewhere, to prevent any becoming martyrs and to remove them as a threat to the workers' state. As Trotsky once said, if one cannot make a fascist repent its beliefs through reasonable argument, one should feel free to acquaint its head with the pavement."
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/marxist-lenini...
Owen, McDonnell and Corbyn all support violence towards political opponents.
Owen has also supported the IRA in the past, but he does claim to have changed his mind.
I wasn’t aware of any of that.Quoting him...
"In a workers' state, of course, Fascism would not have such soft treatment. Fascist propaganda would be banned. Fascists would have no participation in any elections. Fascist acts would be punished with death. Those people with illusions in Fascism would be sent to corrective facilities until they repent their beliefs. I think it would be sensible to deport all Fascist leaders to an offshore island prison somewhere, to prevent any becoming martyrs and to remove them as a threat to the workers' state. As Trotsky once said, if one cannot make a fascist repent its beliefs through reasonable argument, one should feel free to acquaint its head with the pavement."
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/marxist-lenini...
Owen, McDonnell and Corbyn all support violence towards political opponents.
Owen has also supported the IRA in the past, but he does claim to have changed his mind.
The fact remains though that in a civilised, democracy we should never condone violence against people we disagree with.
In addiiton while it's possible that the act in the OP was based on a disagreement over politics, it's just as likely to be a typical late night assault fuelled by alcohol. Time will tell.
banjowilly said:
You condemn it but with reservations which is no condemnation at all. It's your prerogative to give in to your atavistic desires I suppose.
No I condemn it completely but offered an explanation as to why it may have happened. This is a simple concept. All manner of things have explanations that aren’t excuses. Does it then follow that one can’t theorise on why something happened without automatically justifying it?The killers of Lee Rigby were informed by a poisonous ideology. That didn’t make it ok it just explains why it happened. Scary you can’t understand that.
jakesmith said:
No I condemn it completely but offered an explanation as to why it may have happened. This is a simple concept. All manner of things have explanations that aren’t excuses. Does it then follow that one can’t theorise on why something happened without automatically justifying it?
The killers of Lee Rigby were informed by a poisonous ideology. That didn’t make it ok it just explains why it happened. Scary you can’t understand that.
Nah, I understand it well enough.It's an attempt to show magnanimity whilst getting a sly dig in. I said it's simple & it is. You're either alright with it or you aren't. In your case, your posts are clear. I hope it's never your kids on the end of it.The killers of Lee Rigby were informed by a poisonous ideology. That didn’t make it ok it just explains why it happened. Scary you can’t understand that.
jakesmith said:
banjowilly said:
This is pretty simple stuff. If you're gloating over someone whose politics you dislike getting a kicking, then there's something wrong with you.
You don't have to extend the logic very far to see where it leads, yet some of you are unable to do even that.
I condemn the attack completely, it is wrong. I can see why it may have happened because he seems to be quite obnoxious and that can result in scuffles in pubs, also he espouses extreme political views which can upset people. But again I condemn it. You don't have to extend the logic very far to see where it leads, yet some of you are unable to do even that.
El stovey said:
jakesmith said:
banjowilly said:
This is pretty simple stuff. If you're gloating over someone whose politics you dislike getting a kicking, then there's something wrong with you.
You don't have to extend the logic very far to see where it leads, yet some of you are unable to do even that.
I condemn the attack completely, it is wrong. I can see why it may have happened because he seems to be quite obnoxious and that can result in scuffles in pubs, also he espouses extreme political views which can upset people. But again I condemn it. You don't have to extend the logic very far to see where it leads, yet some of you are unable to do even that.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:98elise said:
I'm sceptical of the likes of Guido but fair enough, there are a few links and replies from Owen Jones that do suggest it may have been him.You can't defend what he said.
That said I'm also not sure something you said 20 years ago when you were 14 or 15 is all that relevant to someone taking a kicking today.
Go back to some of the things I thought and said in my younger days and I'd say I deserved a kicking back then.
People with those views seem to carry on with them. You only have to look at Corbyn and McDonnell when they proclaim to be anti violence yet support violence against the legitimate government of this country.
Every now and then the mask slips and you get their true feelings. McDonnell said he would lock up Tories, but when asked under what laws he said he would make them up. Then you have calls for insurrection, and days of rage.
These are not the words of pacifists.
It wasn't two Nigerians was it...?
No one should get attacked, that's obvious.
Jones does nothing but advance his own politic in the most vitriolic way - everything he sees, hears, reads and touches is littered with social injustice - nothing slight, always substantial, nothing nuanced, always blatant. I'm surprised he's not beaten every day - that's the general impression of the world he gives.
This creative licence with reality firstly does nothing to assuage the fear of the vulnerable minorities he evangelizes to - contributing, in my opinion, to the shoddy state of mental health - and secondly does nothing that wins over reasonable people to his cause due to the obvious inflation of any ill, however slight.
He makes money by furthering division amongst people; how noble.
Anyone fetishizing over their particular political views has mental issues - right or left, they're both as bad as one another.
Hope he recovers well.
No one should get attacked, that's obvious.
Jones does nothing but advance his own politic in the most vitriolic way - everything he sees, hears, reads and touches is littered with social injustice - nothing slight, always substantial, nothing nuanced, always blatant. I'm surprised he's not beaten every day - that's the general impression of the world he gives.
This creative licence with reality firstly does nothing to assuage the fear of the vulnerable minorities he evangelizes to - contributing, in my opinion, to the shoddy state of mental health - and secondly does nothing that wins over reasonable people to his cause due to the obvious inflation of any ill, however slight.
He makes money by furthering division amongst people; how noble.
Anyone fetishizing over their particular political views has mental issues - right or left, they're both as bad as one another.
Hope he recovers well.
Edited by andy_s on Sunday 18th August 09:53
I’m not sure Jake is OK with it.
That is not his point - I take it extremes left or right can lead to this.
Whether its Milkshakes at Farage or beating up Owen Jones - both are products of extremism in both ways - Farage and Owen being extremists who trigger other extremists.
Having read some of this stuff it is interesting to draw parallels to Owen have stupid views on killing fascists and what Farage’s school friends reported he got up to in his youth. The are different sides of the same coin.
If you condemn the milkshake, you should condemn this attack.
You can’t be sure to believe OJ but one point not made yet is that it sounds like they singled him out from six friends - maybe he was the most annoying in the pub, but that could also signal a political motive.
I quite like the idea of putting them in the welsh valleys - I took that as a joke of course, but I like the idea that only a bunch of actual sheep would hear them rant on.
That is not his point - I take it extremes left or right can lead to this.
Whether its Milkshakes at Farage or beating up Owen Jones - both are products of extremism in both ways - Farage and Owen being extremists who trigger other extremists.
Having read some of this stuff it is interesting to draw parallels to Owen have stupid views on killing fascists and what Farage’s school friends reported he got up to in his youth. The are different sides of the same coin.
If you condemn the milkshake, you should condemn this attack.
You can’t be sure to believe OJ but one point not made yet is that it sounds like they singled him out from six friends - maybe he was the most annoying in the pub, but that could also signal a political motive.
I quite like the idea of putting them in the welsh valleys - I took that as a joke of course, but I like the idea that only a bunch of actual sheep would hear them rant on.
98elise said:
Agreed, but in my teens I wasn't advocating killing of people with opposing political beliefs, or supporting the IRA.
People with those views seem to carry on with them. You only have to look at Corbyn and McDonnell when they proclaim to be anti violence yet support violence against the legitimate government of this country.
Every now and then the mask slips and you get their true feelings. McDonnell said he would lock up Tories, but when asked under what laws he said he would make them up. Then you have calls for insurrection, and days of rage.
These are not the words of pacifists.
Agreed.People with those views seem to carry on with them. You only have to look at Corbyn and McDonnell when they proclaim to be anti violence yet support violence against the legitimate government of this country.
Every now and then the mask slips and you get their true feelings. McDonnell said he would lock up Tories, but when asked under what laws he said he would make them up. Then you have calls for insurrection, and days of rage.
These are not the words of pacifists.
I read some of the stuff he writes in The Guardian and a lot of it is drivel.
However I've also heard him stand in on LBC a few times for three hours at a time and I don't recognise that person now from those posts.
People change, for good and for bad.
I'd be a little wary of drawing a parallel between things he may have said 20 years ago but no longer appears to stand by and things the likes of McDonnell and Corbyn and others say and promote now or certainly in much more recent times.
jakesmith said:
El stovey said:
jakesmith said:
banjowilly said:
This is pretty simple stuff. If you're gloating over someone whose politics you dislike getting a kicking, then there's something wrong with you.
You don't have to extend the logic very far to see where it leads, yet some of you are unable to do even that.
I condemn the attack completely, it is wrong. I can see why it may have happened because he seems to be quite obnoxious and that can result in scuffles in pubs, also he espouses extreme political views which can upset people. But again I condemn it. You don't have to extend the logic very far to see where it leads, yet some of you are unable to do even that.
El stovey said:
jakesmith said:
El stovey said:
jakesmith said:
banjowilly said:
This is pretty simple stuff. If you're gloating over someone whose politics you dislike getting a kicking, then there's something wrong with you.
You don't have to extend the logic very far to see where it leads, yet some of you are unable to do even that.
I condemn the attack completely, it is wrong. I can see why it may have happened because he seems to be quite obnoxious and that can result in scuffles in pubs, also he espouses extreme political views which can upset people. But again I condemn it. You don't have to extend the logic very far to see where it leads, yet some of you are unable to do even that.
You will never, ever, see as an example, Corbyn, condemn an act by a group he is aligned with in the way I condemned Jones being pushed over. He would say 'I condemn all violence'. I explicitly condemned the act in question. In fact, I did it twice for good measure in one post.
Once more: an explanation is not the same as a justification
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