Brexit: would you change your vote.

[ruggedscotty]

Its done

we took a vote and voted to leave Europe.


All this talk about another vote ? Why ?


There are plenty of countries out there that are prospering without being part of Europe. And believe it or not were going to be out of Europe.


Hard exit please - this deal that we have is as Noel Edmunds would say No Deal. Its rank its full of pitfalls and is much worse than us saying goodbye.


What are we frightened off ? exactly ?

[JulianPH]

Elysium said:

Anyway, thanks for the debate. I came here to find out what leave voters thought about May's deal. It seems safe to say it is not liked and I fully understand why.

I guess we now all wait to see what happens next.

So you can't (or won't) answer my question.

That is fine, I just wish you would say so, rather than pretend otherwise.

[Cupramax]

ruggedscotty said:

What are we frightened off ? exactly ?

I do wonder this, it’s like a large amount of the population along with a good amount of the politicians are scared of ruling themselves. They need to feel safe having the EU holding our hand.

If we were a tin pot country with no economy we’d be committing suicide but as it is, are we what? Fifth or sixth largest economy in the world depending where you look. I’m pretty sure there are any number of ways, like becoming a tax haven for instance, that we could cause the EU any number of problems. I’m not saying we should, but if they want to be dicks so should we.

[ruggedscotty]

I voted to leave.

I think we grasp this chance and give it all that we have, our economy hasn't tanked, there are the ones out there that worry that they are going to lose, banks ? The ones that nearly bankrupted us ? saying they will go to the Netherlands ? well guess what Fck off. fed up with all the terror and angst that these companies are wanting to spread just because they think that they will suffer....


No we take charge of our own destiny and make it happen for us. no need to pander to European directives, to follow what they want us to do just so that it gives them some thing? wait we send money to help them when we are in austerity.... like bks man.

lets start to look after ourselves.

[Rich_W]

Cupramax said:

ruggedscotty said:

What are we frightened off ? exactly ?

I do wonder this, it’s like a large amount of the population along with a good amount of the politicians are scared of ruling themselves. They need to feel safe having the EU holding our hand.

Well politicians like to be able to say it's not their fault. So that "safety net" is mighty handy.

The "we'll die without EU supplying us Oxygen" people are just very risk adverse. These are people that would never start their own business, do a parachute jump etc Not ask out that person for fear of rejection. Nothing wrong with those types, but they don't tend to make good leaders.

[skyrover]

Cupramax said:

ruggedscotty said:

What are we frightened off ? exactly ?

I do wonder this, it’s like a large amount of the population along with a good amount of the politicians are scared of ruling themselves. They need to feel safe having the EU holding our hand.

If we were a tin pot country with no economy we’d be committing suicide but as it is, are we what? Fifth or sixth largest economy in the world depending where you look. I’m pretty sure there are any number of ways, like becoming a tax haven for instance, that we could cause the EU any number of problems. I’m not saying we should, but if they want to be dicks so should we.

Exactly.

Behind the USA, we are arguably 2nd most influential country on earth. It's no wonder the EU is gnashing and wailing at the prospect of losing us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization_and_Wo...

[johnxjsc1985]

ruggedscotty said:

Its done

we took a vote and voted to leave Europe.


All this talk about another vote ? Why ?


There are plenty of countries out there that are prospering without being part of Europe. And believe it or not were going to be out of Europe.


Hard exit please - this deal that we have is as Noel Edmunds would say No Deal. Its rank its full of pitfalls and is much worse than us saying goodbye.


What are we frightened off ? exactly ?

We have as a country had to face hard times regardless of how the came about. there is only a certain type of paid expert who for tells of stormy seas ahead but who can really say so much can happen in what are troubled times not just for our country but for the world. Just remember we had Russia perform a Chemical weapons attack on people in this Country .
So lets just get on with it we might be pleasantly surprised at life outside the Socialist Superstate called the EU

[Elysium]

JulianPH said:

Elysium said:

Anyway, thanks for the debate. I came here to find out what leave voters thought about May's deal. It seems safe to say it is not liked and I fully understand why.

I guess we now all wait to see what happens next.

So you can't (or won't) answer my question.

That is fine, I just wish you would say so, rather than pretend otherwise.

I answered all of your questions, even when you started changing them.

[Elysium]

Cupramax said:

ruggedscotty said:

What are we frightened off ? exactly ?

I do wonder this, it’s like a large amount of the population along with a good amount of the politicians are scared of ruling themselves. They need to feel safe having the EU holding our hand.

If we were a tin pot country with no economy we’d be committing suicide but as it is, are we what? Fifth or sixth largest economy in the world depending where you look. I’m pretty sure there are any number of ways, like becoming a tax haven for instance, that we could cause the EU any number of problems. I’m not saying we should, but if they want to be dicks so should we.

I am sure that the UK can survive outside the EU.

What people are worried about is the damage that will be caused to businesses and the economy if we simply walk away in Mar 19. From what I have seen the Govt advice to business is so vague that it is next to useless and I don’t think we are at all prepared.

Its a rapidly changing world out there and we can’t rely on our past as a guarantee of our future prosperity.

[amusingduck]

Elysium said:

NDA said:

Elysium said:

The referendum was always intended to be advisory. Every aspect of it was put together on that basis.

Was it?

It sounded the opposite to me:

'This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision.' [David Cameron]

Yes - if you read the guidance given to MPs and the debates around the referendum bill, then it is very clear that they were discussing and that they eventually agreed a referendum that was only ever intended to be advisory.

Cameron was saying what he would do if the advice received was to ‘leave’. But when that happened he decided to quit instead.

The point is that, if this had been a legally binding referendum, the question would have been drafted very differently.

Because of the vacuum in leadership, we have ended up in a situation where everyone acts as if it were binding and the Govts only obligation is now to enact the ‘will of the people’.

The problem is that, as a result, the ‘will of the people’ is not very well explained. So May has given us a deal under which we ‘leave’, that many do not like.

Most of your arguments seem to hinge on "but technically...". That doesn't wash, and you don't seem to appreciate that. This isn't a points based scoring system that we're using to decide what is technically the best thing to have for tea, it's a massive political upheaval. Political being the key word.

In the same way, you can't just attribute the pre-referendum consensus of what Leaving entails to Cameron and say "he's gone now - and with it, so does everything that we understood about what Brexit meant". Very disingenuous IMO - he was far from alone in painting the pre-referendum Leave landscape, quite the opposite. Nor did he paint that picture as what he'd do if Leave won, but what would inevitably follow if Leave won.

I get it, they were bullstting. So cocksure they were, losing was an impossibility. Let's nip this st in the bud, FUD for breakfast, quick landslide for lunch and settled forever in time for tea. It backfired spectacularly, as we all know.

For those who voted Leave for political reasons, which I believe to be the vast majority, a political fudge like May is offering up will only add to the discontent. A piss poor start to our new political landscape. Perhaps we do need a few terms of Corbyn to get this shambles into some kind of shape, because the current lot of Conservatives have shown they are utterly, utterly, inept and completely untrustworthy.

[JulianPH]

amusingduck said:

Most of your arguments seem to hinge on "but technically...". That doesn't wash, and you don't seem to appreciate that. This isn't a points based scoring system that we're using to decide what is technically the best thing to have for tea, it's a massive political upheaval. Political being the key word.

In the same way, you can't just attribute the pre-referendum consensus of what Leaving entails to Cameron and say "he's gone now - and with it, so does everything that we understood about what Brexit meant". Very disingenuous IMO - he was far from alone in painting the pre-referendum Leave landscape, quite the opposite. Nor did he paint that picture as what he'd do if Leave won, but what would inevitably follow if Leave won.

I get it, they were bullstting. So cocksure they were, losing was an impossibility. Let's nip this st in the bud, FUD for breakfast, quick landslide for lunch and settled forever in time for tea. It backfired spectacularly, as we all know.

For those who voted Leave for political reasons, which I believe to be the vast majority, a political fudge like May is offering up will only add to the discontent. A piss poor start to our new political landscape. Perhaps we do need a few terms of Corbyn to get this shambles into some kind of shape, because the current lot of Conservatives have shown they are utterly, utterly, inept and completely untrustworthy.

[Cupramax]

JulianPH said:

amusingduck said:

Most of your arguments seem to hinge on "but technically...". That doesn't wash, and you don't seem to appreciate that. This isn't a points based scoring system that we're using to decide what is technically the best thing to have for tea, it's a massive political upheaval. Political being the key word.

In the same way, you can't just attribute the pre-referendum consensus of what Leaving entails to Cameron and say "he's gone now - and with it, so does everything that we understood about what Brexit meant". Very disingenuous IMO - he was far from alone in painting the pre-referendum Leave landscape, quite the opposite. Nor did he paint that picture as what he'd do if Leave won, but what would inevitably follow if Leave won.

I get it, they were bullstting. So cocksure they were, losing was an impossibility. Let's nip this st in the bud, FUD for breakfast, quick landslide for lunch and settled forever in time for tea. It backfired spectacularly, as we all know.

For those who voted Leave for political reasons, which I believe to be the vast majority, a political fudge like May is offering up will only add to the discontent. A piss poor start to our new political landscape. Perhaps we do need a few terms of Corbyn to get this shambles into some kind of shape, because the current lot of Conservatives have shown they are utterly, utterly, inept and completely untrustworthy.

Not sure if serious, McDonald as Chancellor and Flabbott as home sec after Brexit, another massive clusterfk inbound. We need someone with an apath of common sense which Hammond seems to have.

[Randy Winkman]

JulianPH said:

amusingduck said:

Most of your arguments seem to hinge on "but technically...". That doesn't wash, and you don't seem to appreciate that. This isn't a points based scoring system that we're using to decide what is technically the best thing to have for tea, it's a massive political upheaval. Political being the key word.

In the same way, you can't just attribute the pre-referendum consensus of what Leaving entails to Cameron and say "he's gone now - and with it, so does everything that we understood about what Brexit meant". Very disingenuous IMO - he was far from alone in painting the pre-referendum Leave landscape, quite the opposite. Nor did he paint that picture as what he'd do if Leave won, but what would inevitably follow if Leave won.

I get it, they were bullstting. So cocksure they were, losing was an impossibility. Let's nip this st in the bud, FUD for breakfast, quick landslide for lunch and settled forever in time for tea. It backfired spectacularly, as we all know.

For those who voted Leave for political reasons, which I believe to be the vast majority, a political fudge like May is offering up will only add to the discontent. A piss poor start to our new political landscape. Perhaps we do need a few terms of Corbyn to get this shambles into some kind of shape, because the current lot of Conservatives have shown they are utterly, utterly, inept and completely untrustworthy.

Exactly. The last bit is the one thing that this has really shown. An utter cock-up from the point Cameron started it.

[Robertj21a]

amusingduck said:

Most of your arguments seem to hinge on "but technically...". That doesn't wash, and you don't seem to appreciate that. This isn't a points based scoring system that we're using to decide what is technically the best thing to have for tea, it's a massive political upheaval. Political being the key word.

In the same way, you can't just attribute the pre-referendum consensus of what Leaving entails to Cameron and say "he's gone now - and with it, so does everything that we understood about what Brexit meant". Very disingenuous IMO - he was far from alone in painting the pre-referendum Leave landscape, quite the opposite. Nor did he paint that picture as what he'd do if Leave won, but what would inevitably follow if Leave won.

I get it, they were bullstting. So cocksure they were, losing was an impossibility. Let's nip this st in the bud, FUD for breakfast, quick landslide for lunch and settled forever in time for tea. It backfired spectacularly, as we all know.

For those who voted Leave for political reasons, which I believe to be the vast majority, a political fudge like May is offering up will only add to the discontent. A piss poor start to our new political landscape. Perhaps we do need a few terms of Corbyn to get this shambles into some kind of shape, because the current lot of Conservatives have shown they are utterly, utterly, inept and completely untrustworthy.

Interested in your belief that the vast majority voted Leave for political reasons. Virtually everyone I know voted to leave for the simple reason that they wanted to.......leave !. Politics didn't come in to it.

[amusingduck]

Robertj21a said:

Interested in your belief that the vast majority voted Leave for political reasons. Virtually everyone I know voted to leave for the simple reason that they wanted to.......leave !. Politics didn't come in to it.

Why did they want to Leave though, aren't their reasons predominantly political reasons? Not wanting another layer, not wanting the EU flavour of "democracy", preferring needs-based immigration, objecting to the EU's handling of it's various issues, etc? My reasons are pretty much solely political/ideological - I'd categorise it as "It's worse inside" rather than "It's better outside".

The Ashcroft poll informs a lot of my thinking, though perhaps the questions could have played a large part in that. As written though, Leavers swung drastically towards "political" rather than "economical".

[chunder27]

Voted leave because I wanted to leave, never understood free movement/free trade, wanted an end to that if possible, as the movement is highly one way in certain countries leading to plusses and minuses in those countries and massive problems in the places they leave too. That knock effect is not being discussed at all.

Detest the way mass immigration has totally changed the industry I work in (manufacturing) to the point where at least 3 companies I once worked for have gone bust in 10 years, not through competition but because of grants making Romania the new place of worship for accountants who run companies now. And lots of other smaller things, like communities being very different now, housing, education, NHS< all the usual being overwhelmed with 5 millin extra people and scores not on the books.

Wanted a reset, for everything. Simple as that. Can cope with years of bad for the eventual good.

People call leavers short term, far from it, a lot of us want to reset the whole thing, business will adjust and succeed eventually, hopefully on a better deal than we have up to now.

risk yes, but for me the benefits long term outweigh the short term navel staring or remainers.

[dundarach]

Voted remain as world problems are world problems, shift one immigrant and get another, one deal to another, one importer, exporter...well you get the idea.

NOTHING will change in terms of johnny foreigner on the corner, or the German car on the drive.

You are VERY naive if you think Brexit will solve your (not everyone I appreciate) inherent racism or poor economic situation as it won't...

However listened to lots of positives about businesses getting ready and that's what everyone should do.

We voted leave, get on with now and let's understand the pros and cons and adjust accordingly.

All this fk arsing around is no good to anyone!

[M3333]

ruggedscotty said:

I voted to leave.

I think we grasp this chance and give it all that we have, our economy hasn't tanked, there are the ones out there that worry that they are going to lose, banks ? The ones that nearly bankrupted us ? saying they will go to the Netherlands ? well guess what Fck off. fed up with all the terror and angst that these companies are wanting to spread just because they think that they will suffer....


No we take charge of our own destiny and make it happen for us. no need to pander to European directives, to follow what they want us to do just so that it gives them some thing? wait we send money to help them when we are in austerity.... like bks man.

lets start to look after ourselves.

+1

The reason we are in this current situation is having a leader so weak she has pandered to what the EU want. A leader who never believed in Brexit or how as a nation we will bounce back and flourish without the EU. Apparently she is a bloody difficult woman but she certainly hasn't played hard ball at all with the EU elite and they have predictably walked all over us, using the Irish border as a huge headache to complicate things. Watching Parliament today it is embarrassing how the EU are playing divide and rule beautifully as the whole country looks on in disbelief.

[The Dangerous Elk]

M3333 said:

+1

The reason we are in this current situation is having a leader so weak she has pandered to what the EU want. A leader who never believed in Brexit or how as a nation we will bounce back and flourish without the EU. Apparently she is a bloody difficult woman but she certainly hasn't played hard ball at all with the EU elite and they have predictably walked all over us, using the Irish border as a huge headache to complicate things. Watching Parliament today it is embarrassing how the EU are playing divide and rule beautifully as the whole country looks on in disbelief.

There is only one side that is divided and will not back down and they are the remainers. It is they that have via May fought the very basic wish of the majority of British voters.

Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Monday 10th December 19:45

[Robertj21a]

M3333 said:

ruggedscotty said:

I voted to leave.

I think we grasp this chance and give it all that we have, our economy hasn't tanked, there are the ones out there that worry that they are going to lose, banks ? The ones that nearly bankrupted us ? saying they will go to the Netherlands ? well guess what Fck off. fed up with all the terror and angst that these companies are wanting to spread just because they think that they will suffer....


No we take charge of our own destiny and make it happen for us. no need to pander to European directives, to follow what they want us to do just so that it gives them some thing? wait we send money to help them when we are in austerity.... like bks man.

lets start to look after ourselves.

I don't disagree with you but I guess that trying to negotiate with a block of 27 others, who have every intention of standing united, is a pretty tall order for anyone.

I can now see us leaving with no deal at all.

+1

The reason we are in this current situation is having a leader so weak she has pandered to what the EU want. A leader who never believed in Brexit or how as a nation we will bounce back and flourish without the EU. Apparently she is a bloody difficult woman but she certainly hasn't played hard ball at all with the EU elite and they have predictably walked all over us, using the Irish border as a huge headache to complicate things. Watching Parliament today it is embarrassing how the EU are playing divide and rule beautifully as the whole country looks on in disbelief.