The death of the high street.

[rxe]

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

If you were spending £2000 on a TV would you trust A) a bunch of randoms on the internet, or B) your own eyes?

6 years ago I did spend that on a TV, I went with B.

I wouldn't spend £2000 on a TV, and I don't give much of a toss about the operating system. Pretty much everything uses an LG or Samsung panel anyway.

To the point about manufacturer shills - they exist, but they're pretty easy to spot. Low post count, or posts about one subject.

[skwdenyer]

gizlaroc said:

I would rather people ask me than look and just order elsewhere.

I had it the other day, someone looking at a jacket we had in, it was £450, but we knew it would be in the sale after xmas.
I could see him looking on his phone, which means trying to find it at the best price, I said to him "Let me know if you see it cheaper?"
He came back and said "Yeah OK."

Saw him again yesterday and he had the jacket on.
I said "You should have said, I would have done you a deal on it."
"Yeah but I got £150 off it, so didn't like to ask."

I was going to offer him it for £250, it was my last one, and an XL so just wanted it gone.


There are two types of shopper that look on their phone, those that are too stupid to realise it is rude and therefore too stupid to even ask, and those that are genuinely nice people and therefore don't ask as they don't want to offend.
As retailers we can't win. Haha

The problem is, if you'll forgive me sounding personal (you're just a proxy for wider retail here), that this just reinforces the idea that it is somehow "who you know" or "how you ask" or whatever that determines the price you can get. So even if you get £150 off, you still might feel you hadn't done well enough.

That disempowers the consumer.

Online discount pricing democratises the process by allowing every customer (ok, there are algorithmic exceptions, but the customer doesn't see those) to get the "best" price at any given time.

That is empowering for the consumer.

So, yes, you can "win" - mark the item with the price you're prepared to sell at. If you want to offer individual discounts, find a way to dress it up in a loyalty programme or somesuch. But let the consumer feel (at least somewhat) in control of that process. Otherwise they walk.

[gizlaroc]

So said:

In that particular circumstance could you have said, "go away and think about it. But I'll put it to one side for you until tomorrow and you can have it for £250 if you come back"? He's have thought you a bloody nice chap, would probably have bought the coat and would likely have come back next time he wanted something.

I was paraphrasing a bit because I'm on a forum.

I guess it was not till I saw him again that I thought "I could have done that for £250. Just get it cleared."
At the time I was thinking do a deal, maybe 20 or 25% or so.

Having said that it sold anyway and my manager did it for £375, it was £425 not £450 thinking about it.

But the point was, sometimes we don't like to ask in store.
I know when I bought some speakers the other week, I didn't want to mention to the guys I buy some kit off that I was buying some Quads as they were 25% off a brand new pair shipped from Quad. They probably prefer I ask, but I didn't want to be in a position where I had to say "Sorry, going to use someone else as a bit cheaper."

[Clockwork Cupcake]

skwdenyer said:

The problem is, if you'll forgive me sounding personal (you're just a proxy for wider retail here), that this just reinforces the idea that it is somehow "who you know" or "how you ask" or whatever that determines the price you can get. So even if you get £150 off, you still might feel you hadn't done well enough.

That disempowers the consumer.

Online discount pricing democratises the process by allowing every customer (ok, there are algorithmic exceptions, but the customer doesn't see those) to get the "best" price at any given time.

That is empowering for the consumer.

So, yes, you can "win" - mark the item with the price you're prepared to sell at. If you want to offer individual discounts, find a way to dress it up in a loyalty programme or somesuch. But let the consumer feel (at least somewhat) in control of that process. Otherwise they walk.

Indeed. Also, there is no expectation on the part of the customer to even be able to haggle. Shops generally label goods with the price that they expect you to pay. And customers understand and accept that.

The biggest problem with High Street retailers is that they have all the extra expenses that are incurred by trading that way, which online-only retailers do not have to bear. I can totally understand the economics of that, but it puts them at an instant disadvantage on price.

Where a chain is both online and on the High Street, they should really offer the same prices and absorb the costs into their wider business model. Otherwise they're not really incentivising the customer to buy there and then.

I found a lovely leather jacket in one of the concessions in Debenhams once. However, they didn't have quite the right size. They said they could order it in for me but at the same price. I went online and got it for 30% less and it arrived a day or so later.

Edit: I know that in some retail scenarios there is an expectation to be able to haggle. Like car showrooms and hi-fi shops, for example.

[gizlaroc]

skwdenyer said:

The problem is, if you'll forgive me sounding personal (you're just a proxy for wider retail here), that this just reinforces the idea that it is somehow "who you know" or "how you ask" or whatever that determines the price you can get. So even if you get £150 off, you still might feel you hadn't done well enough.

That disempowers the consumer.

Online discount pricing democratises the process by allowing every customer (ok, there are algorithmic exceptions, but the customer doesn't see those) to get the "best" price at any given time.

That is empowering for the consumer.

So, yes, you can "win" - mark the item with the price you're prepared to sell at. If you want to offer individual discounts, find a way to dress it up in a loyalty programme or somesuch. But let the consumer feel (at least somewhat) in control of that process. Otherwise they walk.

I'm not sure that it always works like that.

We do tend to look after those at that are loyal to us, but also, I am the first to point out if they can get it cheaper online when they ask if I can get something in as a special if I know some obscure shop has them in stock on offer. We follow lots of online stores and their prices.
This may sound stupid to most, but it does mean we tend to get some very loyal customers.

Just happened 30 minutes ago, good customers asked me to get in a Barbour jacket in mustard for his missus, they are £199, I can get it, I would have done him 10 or 15%, but I also know someone who has them in that colour only for £127. So I pointed him there. He was chuffed that he is getting cheap and he still ended up spending a few hundred with me, so I'm happy.

The problem we have is if I start ticketing sale prices on items, it changes customers perception of what they should be paying on other things. If they see a jacket with 40% off it, the one next to it they like or in their size is not quite as appealing anymore.

We have a pretty high conversion rate in our store, we are at around 65%. Now, we are in a small market town, which means people often come into town to see us, and thus to buy, but it is pretty good considering many clothing stores are between 20-40% conversion rate.


The main thing is to be able to read the customer, as seen above, we don't always get it right, we just have to hope we can more often than not.

[skwdenyer]

gizlaroc said:

I'm not sure that it always works like that.

We do tend to look after those at that are loyal to us, but also, I am the first to point out if they can get it cheaper online when they ask if I can get something in as a special if I know some obscure shop has them in stock on offer. We follow lots of online stores and their prices.
This may sound stupid to most, but it does mean we tend to get some very loyal customers.

Just happened 30 minutes ago, good customers asked me to get in a Barbour jacket in mustard for his missus, they are £199, I can get it, I would have done him 10 or 15%, but I also know someone who has them in that colour only for £127. So I pointed him there. He was chuffed that he is getting cheap and he still ended up spending a few hundred with me, so I'm happy.

The problem we have is if I start ticketing sale prices on items, it changes customers perception of what they should be paying on other things. If they see a jacket with 40% off it, the one next to it they like or in their size is not quite as appealing anymore.

We have a pretty high conversion rate in our store, we are at around 65%. Now, we are in a small market town, which means people often come into town to see us, and thus to buy, but it is pretty good considering many clothing stores are between 20-40% conversion rate.


The main thing is to be able to read the customer, as seen above, we don't always get it right, we just have to hope we can more often than not.

Like I said, my comments weren't personal to you. I'm all in favour of the approach you take. I was merely observing that the *average* consumer (fresh off the street, not knowing how you operate) doesn't have a position of confidence and empowerment from which to discuss price with you. And, even worse, if they pay "sticker price" and then hear the next guy in the queue getting a special deal, they feel ripped off - and will tell everyone about it on social media!

[skwdenyer]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Indeed. Also, there is no expectation on the part of the customer to even be able to haggle. Shops generally label goods with the price that they expect you to pay. And customers understand and accept that.

The biggest problem with High Street retailers is that they have all the extra expenses that are incurred by trading that way, which online-only retailers do not have to bear. I can totally understand the economics of that, but it puts them at an instant disadvantage on price.

Where a chain is both online and on the High Street, they should really offer the same prices and absorb the costs into their wider business model. Otherwise they're not really incentivising the customer to buy there and then.

I found a lovely leather jacket in one of the concessions in Debenhams once. However, they didn't have quite the right size. They said they could order it in for me but at the same price. I went online and got it for 30% less and it arrived a day or so later.

Edit: I know that in some retail scenarios there is an expectation to be able to haggle. Like car showrooms and hi-fi shops, for example.

I think there's some confusion sometimes around the relative economics of online vs high street, and an assumption that online has an instant advantage.

I'm really not so sure about that. What they have is a way to operate at thin margins by right-sizing their costs over a larger number of orders.

The minimum unit of staff is 1. The minimum viable retail store is a few hundred square feet. And so on. If footfall drops 10% you can't drop to 0.9 of a person. You can't down-size the store overnight.

You can start a webstore from your bedroom, part time.

Getting web traffic to your webstore is expensive. Keeping on top of tech is expensive. Just staying secure and compliant with changing requirements, regulations, platforms, etc. is expensive. Decent web dev is expensive.

Against that, with servers-on-demand these days you can scale up the capacity (and cost) of your store when it is busy, and scale back down when quiet. You can map resources to demand much more closely, and therefore run at much lower margins with less risk of losses. You can book pickers and packers by the hour, not the day or week or year. And that's before we get to the question of business rates and rents.

But at scale? A properly-optimised high street location can be just as efficient as a properly-optimised webstore. But the window for optimisation is rather narrower on the high street.

The fundamental benefit of online (which in fairness is practiced poorly by many online stores) is that one can metaphorically "move" the store to where the consumers are. A decent transactional back end framework can be linked into Instagram shopping or Facebook, differential use of advertising etc, can shift the store into the consciousness of different groups of consumers. A bit more work can make it international. Etc.

But that could be done (in a different way) on the high street.

There's a lovely advertisement from Allianz insurance from a few years back that asks "imagine if your business model changed every 8 hours" and shows a shop transforming into a different business at night. We need more of that to "sweat the assets" if we are to maintain high street costs, or we need to lower those costs a bit. The comment earlier about a "man creche" or even a bar is interesting; now imagine if you could pack away the clothes at the end of the day and just run the bar? There'd be some capital cost (just like building a decent website these days), but after that the advantages could be huge.

We're all surprisingly conservative. Retail moreso. There's "a right way" and then sometimes - as now - "the right way is failing - what shall we do?" But innovation (especially temporal) is surprisingly thin on the ground...

[So]

gizlaroc said:

So said:

In that particular circumstance could you have said, "go away and think about it. But I'll put it to one side for you until tomorrow and you can have it for £250 if you come back"? He's have thought you a bloody nice chap, would probably have bought the coat and would likely have come back next time he wanted something.

I was paraphrasing a bit because I'm on a forum.

I guess it was not till I saw him again that I thought "I could have done that for £250. Just get it cleared."
At the time I was thinking do a deal, maybe 20 or 25% or so.

Having said that it sold anyway and my manager did it for £375, it was £425 not £450 thinking about it.

But the point was, sometimes we don't like to ask in store.
I know when I bought some speakers the other week, I didn't want to mention to the guys I buy some kit off that I was buying some Quads as they were 25% off a brand new pair shipped from Quad. They probably prefer I ask, but I didn't want to be in a position where I had to say "Sorry, going to use someone else as a bit cheaper."

People don't like to be rejected.

If they can see that Shonkywear.com has got the jacket at £250, most people will buy there and be reluctant to haggle in your shop where there is a risk of you laughing at them publicly. Now I know you wouldn't do that, but it's what people have in their heads.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

So said:

Shonkywear.com

[gizlaroc]

skwdenyer said:

And, even worse, if they pay "sticker price" and then hear the next guy in the queue getting a special deal, they feel ripped off - and will tell everyone about it on social media!

Yeah, this is a tricky one, even us doing a promo maybe because our suppliers are doing one and we are matching it, can be a pain.

Usually we know a few days before so can offer it early etc. But I always worry someone will buy something from me during the week and then see we have it on the Saturday with say 20% off.
We always offer the difference back in vouchers if mentioned, up to 2 weeks after the promo.

We have not had to do it very often, and I hope that is because people have not been bothered rather than too annoyed to say anything.

[gizlaroc]

So said:

People don't like to be rejected.

If they can see that Shonkywear.com has got the jacket at £250, most people will buy there and be reluctant to haggle in your shop where there is a risk of you laughing at them publicly. Now I know you wouldn't do that, but it's what people have in their heads.

Haha, shonkywonk.com.

I also think many don't like to risk offending too. I know I don't.

[walm]

skwdenyer said:

I think there's some confusion sometimes around the relative economics of online vs high street, and an assumption that online has an instant advantage.

I'm really not so sure about that. What they have is a way to operate at thin margins by right-sizing their costs over a larger number of orders.

I don't think anyone is confused other than you.
There are a significant number of instant advantages:
- Lower rent.
- Lower staff costs.
- Lower cost of inventory.
- Lower fit-out costs.
- Network effects.
- etc...

"a way to operate at thin margins by right-sizing their costs over a larger number of orders" is literally the definition of an instant advantage.

[skwdenyer]

walm said:

skwdenyer said:

I think there's some confusion sometimes around the relative economics of online vs high street, and an assumption that online has an instant advantage.

I'm really not so sure about that. What they have is a way to operate at thin margins by right-sizing their costs over a larger number of orders.

I don't think anyone is confused other than you.
There are a significant number of instant advantages:
- Lower rent.
- Lower staff costs.
- Lower cost of inventory.
- Lower fit-out costs.
- Network effects.
- etc...

"a way to operate at thin margins by right-sizing their costs over a larger number of orders" is literally the definition of an instant advantage.

I agree with some in your list. Lower cost of inventory? How so? Lower staff costs? Per gross sale, perhaps. Per pound profit? Not always so straightforward. Lower rent? Yes, sometimes. Lower fit-out costs? Depends upon how efficient your warehousing / pick-and-pack operations are, but decent warehouse fits don't come cheap these days.

Set against that, significant returns rates (as high as 30-50% in some sectors), restocking costs, stock loss, etc. No customers without spending money to acquire them and no intrinsic "presence" in the marketplace. Significant pressure to provide free deliveries, free returns. Packaging matterials, Courier / postal losses. Fraud. Etc.

And so it goes on.

There are still some very profitable shops. There are plenty of loss-making online stores. My point was that the inherent advantage is that it is easier to match costs to turnover and revenues in some online businesses, not that a well-run store can't be profitable just like a well-run webstore.

It is easy to say "online is it, high street is dead" but I simply don't believe that. Conventional high street wisdom may be failing right now, but that's not at all the same thing.

[Zad]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

So said:

Shonkywear.com

Brother company to WonHungLo.com

[Carrot]

Red 4 said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Carrot said:

Hardly a recluse, I have many hobbies, interests and group meets. I just don't see the point in "going shopping" and milling about with retards.

I get that you don't like "going shopping", and that's fine. But I think it is rather out of order to call those who do "retards".

I don't.

I ran the gauntlet yesterday for some Xmas shopping.

Shop 1 - Busy. Long queue at the tills. All stood there in their own little world.
Come time to pay they can't find their purse/ debit/ credit card.
Yeah, you've only been stood there for 10 minutes fking daydreaming you fking morons.
Did you think payment was optional ?

Shop 2 - Card shop. Necessary to spend time in the narrow aisles with other shoppers.
Some smell. Some stand next to you constantly sniffing. Some are rude and try to push past/ stand in front of you. One attacked me with her mobility scooter.

Bank - Some fking gimp wanting to discuss football with the teller. Queue was out the door. Nobody gives a st - if you want to talk football then go down the pub with your mates.
wker.

Car park - Carnage. Elderly drivers and people who still think they are in the shops and have zero awareness of anything happening around them don't mix.

Yup. Retards. And lots of them.

Oh the "payment surprise" bunch never fail to amuse me

I am usually there, card in hand ready to swipe / contact on the reader as the last item is going in the bag on the rare occasion I am forced to go mixing with morons. Ensures I can get out as quickly as possible.

[The Surveyor]

skwdenyer said:

walm said:

skwdenyer said:

I think there's some confusion sometimes around the relative economics of online vs high street, and an assumption that online has an instant advantage.

I'm really not so sure about that. What they have is a way to operate at thin margins by right-sizing their costs over a larger number of orders.

I don't think anyone is confused other than you.
There are a significant number of instant advantages:
- Lower rent.
- Lower staff costs.
- Lower cost of inventory.
- Lower fit-out costs.
- Network effects.
- etc...

"a way to operate at thin margins by right-sizing their costs over a larger number of orders" is literally the definition of an instant advantage.

I agree with some in your list. Lower cost of inventory? How so? Lower staff costs? Per gross sale, perhaps. Per pound profit? Not always so straightforward. Lower rent? Yes, sometimes. Lower fit-out costs? Depends upon how efficient your warehousing / pick-and-pack operations are, but decent warehouse fits don't come cheap these days.

Set against that, significant returns rates (as high as 30-50% in some sectors), restocking costs, stock loss, etc. No customers without spending money to acquire them and no intrinsic "presence" in the marketplace. Significant pressure to provide free deliveries, free returns. Packaging matterials, Courier / postal losses. Fraud. Etc.

And so it goes on.

There are still some very profitable shops. There are plenty of loss-making online stores. My point was that the inherent advantage is that it is easier to match costs to turnover and revenues in some online businesses, not that a well-run store can't be profitable just like a well-run webstore.

It is easy to say "online is it, high street is dead" but I simply don't believe that. Conventional high street wisdom may be failing right now, but that's not at all the same thing.

The on-line retailers don't have it all their own way though, they certainly have more competition as a Google search knows no boundaries, they are competing with other on-line retailers nationally and globally..., who may have even tighter margins, who have a slightly better deal with a courier, who have a slightly better deal with their suppliers due to slightly higher volumes. ASOS are showing that on-line operators don't have it easy either.

The key to the preservation of the high-street is that they need to focus on what they do better than the on-line retailers, they need to have sufficient stock so customers can try and buy there and then, they need to ensure their staff are presentable and personable so you and I actually want to buy face to face. Look at a comparison with food retail, some people are happy to have their Tesco order picked and delivered to their home, some prefer to go to a shop and squeeze their lemons before buying. The fear was that on-line food retail was going to replace all large foodstores, but time has shown there is sufficient capacity for both.

[Red 4]

Carrot said:

Oh the "payment surprise" bunch never fail to amuse me

I am usually there, card in hand ready to swipe / contact on the reader as the last item is going in the bag on the rare occasion I am forced to go mixing with morons. Ensures I can get out as quickly as possible.

The vast majority of the thick as mince "payment surprise" lot are, ime, at least middle aged.

It surprises me that they have managed to get to this stage in life.

If they are so fking dense you would have thought they would forget other stuff - like forgetting to breathe.

I've been forced to return to my Xmas shopping.

Help. Somebody please help. They are out in force again today. It's like the zombie apocalypse. Is it OK if I shoot these fkers in the head ?

[snuffy]

Red 4 said:

It surprises me that they have managed to get to this stage in life.

Thousands of years ago they would not have lived very long because they would have been eaten by a lion or stood on by a mammoth or something because they were too stupid to run out of the way. Sadly now, that does not happen anymore.

[Red 4]

snuffy said:

Thousands of years ago they would not have lived very long because they would have been eaten by a lion or stood on by a mammoth or something because they were too stupid to run out of the way. Sadly now, that does not happen anymore.

Looking at the size of some of these wuckfits I think they'd have a reasonable chance with a mammoth.

A lion could probably feast on one for weeks.

You can probably tell I don't like shopping.

Anyone who works in retail has my deepest sympathy.

[egor110]

snuffy said:

Red 4 said:

It surprises me that they have managed to get to this stage in life.

Thousands of years ago they would not have lived very long because they would have been eaten by a lion or stood on by a mammoth or something because they were too stupid to run out of the way. Sadly now, that does not happen anymore.

They managed to come out and vote for brexit though so youngsters weren’t quite so clever there were you .