Army Abuse of Iraqi 'Appalling'

[AshVX220]

Mr Dave said:

What has the actions of enemy fighters got to do with british soldiers torturing a man to death?

Have you even read this entire thread? If not, go back to page 1, post 1 and read on, then you'll understand how we got to me posting that.

[Marvin Hagler]

AshVX220 said:

As has been said, by myself and Shar2, any torture of British or coalition troops will go un-reported as they don't have a media circus monitoring everything they do.

So let's start with innocent civilians and what the enemy has done to them.

Starting with the thing that kicked this whole sorry episode of civilastion off;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11

Then this televised for the world to see;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Marshall_Johnson...

Be under no illusion, what's happeneing to thousands of innocent people and soldiers (British or otherwise) is far worse than this one incident at the hands of a British soldier.

The people we're fighting against are nasty bds who would torture and kill you or I in a heartbeat given half a chance and for no other reason than the fact we disagree with their religious (if you can call it that) beliefs.

There are black prisons that the US have in undisclosed locations where there is torure but no media frenzy. Guantanamo also has secret underground bunkers where red cross and other agencies have no access. Some prisoners are unidentified and unaccounted for.

I agree that British soldiers could be tortured and killed and there will be no record of this, though i suspect their family will want to know what happened. Such things do happend, in Chechenya and other countries there have been numerous people tortured and killed that have never been accounted for.

An interesting thing in the wikipedia link was:

"One of Johnson's Saudi colleagues, Abdullah Al-Momin, published a petition message to the kidnappers through Al-Arabia TV. He asked them in the name of Islam to free Johnson as he has nothing to do with the American military, "if they are really Muslims they should release him" Abdullah said."

It was Johnsons colleague who pleaded with the captors to release him. Johnsons colleague was an arab and muslim. Thus, true muslims are not bad and people fighting falsely in the name of islam are wrong.

You also said Wahabbis are the crazy ones. The king of Saudi Arabia who also pleaded with the captors is a Wahabbi!

I dont care about wahabbi or no wahabbi these are divisions created in religion to keep people fighting and arguing with each other (but that a seperate topic all together!).

[Marvin Hagler]

Jimbeaux said:

Really? So, you are the deciding factor on who is and is not a Muslim? If you think this has nothing to do with "Muslims", then you are misguided. PC BS aside, it has very much to do with it.

"One of Johnson's Saudi colleagues, Abdullah Al-Momin, published a petition message to the kidnappers through Al-Arabia TV. He asked them in the name of Islam to free Johnson as he has nothing to do with the American military, "if they are really Muslims they should release him" Abdullah said."

I have already discussed this issue with you at large in the new year, as did my fellow boxing colleague RockyBalboa. You didnt understand then so you wont understand now.

Nuff said.

[Dixie68]

Mr Dave said:

What has the actions of enemy fighters got to do with british soldiers torturing a man to death?

Nothing, but then what have a few bad apples in the Army got to do with the Army as a whole? People may be sickened by this but I know there are no people more sickened than the average serviceman/woman, if for no other reason than people like Marvin here are quick to tar everyone with the same brush. I was serving in Iraq when this happened and nobody else knew about it, they carried it out in secret because they knew it was wrong and they knew the Army would have hammered them for it.
Seriously, do you think we had 'torture a civilian' parties or something? You will hear no complaints from us about these idiots getting punished for what they did, but I'm getting seriously pissed off with people telling us we are/were scum because of the actions of stupid individuals. Spend a day in the boots of the guys who are still out in Afghanistan and then come and tell me they're scum.

[Corsair7]

Marvin Hagler said:

Your right, the soldiers military career will be ruined. I am not anti-british troops. I dont agree with the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan but that is a seperate issue. I am anti-British troops who torture.

There has not (according to my knowlegde) been a reported case of an iraqi or afghan absusing and sexually humiliating a British soldier (like what was done in Bagram, Abu Ghrain, Guantanamo to detainees).

If I heard a British soldier had been tortured by an opposing force then I would be equally outraged and would feel sad. Indeed, during the two world wars british soldiers went through alot, and sacrificed alot. And as ASHVX220 stated that thier are reports of british soldiers being tortured in the Gulf war I. I am not trying to be one sided, but yes I am angry that british soldiers (the leaders of democracy) dealt with innocent people in a inhumane way, not because of stress (as ASHVX220 pointed out) but because he liked the chorus noise made from the screams.

Only a few months ago Taliban fighters captured an unarmed British soldier. They executed him on the spot. They did not extend the Geneva convention to him in any way.

If they could have gotten him to somewhere 'safe', I daresay he would have been executed on camera by some bloke with a Sword. Just like those civilians that were captured by various oposition fighters a few years ago.

I dont like what happened to the Iraqi civilian, and those that did it should stand up, admit it, and take their punishment.

[AshVX220]

I think the families of any coalition soldiers that have been taken prisoner are just informed that they are MIA and that this may go to KIA when/if the body is recovered.

As for Gulf War 1, we all know that those guys were paraded in front of the TV shortly after they were captured.

With the religion thing, it's not entirely part of this topic, but I was under the impression that most of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban were Wahabbi. Maybe it's an extreme element of the Wahabbi's.

I was just trying to help you understand that this is nothing new, it's not an isolated incident and it certainly is not one sided.

Maybe there are un-registered prisons that the US are using, who knows, but the poeple in those prisons are not likely to be the innocents you seem to be most concerned about. They'll be the real zealots, the ones that may have the information we'll need in order to insure our safety.

[monkey gland]

Marvin Hagler said:

Would you be happy if the soldeiers deployed in the recent UK riots barbarically tortured the looters because 'they are trained killers'?

Yes.

[Dixie68]

Corsair7 said:

Marvin Hagler said:

Your right, the soldiers military career will be ruined. I am not anti-british troops. I dont agree with the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan but that is a seperate issue. I am anti-British troops who torture.

There has not (according to my knowlegde) been a reported case of an iraqi or afghan absusing and sexually humiliating a British soldier (like what was done in Bagram, Abu Ghrain, Guantanamo to detainees).

If I heard a British soldier had been tortured by an opposing force then I would be equally outraged and would feel sad. Indeed, during the two world wars british soldiers went through alot, and sacrificed alot. And as ASHVX220 stated that thier are reports of british soldiers being tortured in the Gulf war I. I am not trying to be one sided, but yes I am angry that british soldiers (the leaders of democracy) dealt with innocent people in a inhumane way, not because of stress (as ASHVX220 pointed out) but because he liked the chorus noise made from the screams.

Only a few months ago Taliban fighters captured an unarmed British soldier. They executed him on the spot. They did not extend the Geneva convention to him in any way.

If they could have gotten him to somewhere 'safe', I daresay he would have been executed on camera by some bloke with a Sword. Just like those civilians that were captured by various oposition fighters a few years ago.

I dont like what happened to the Iraqi civilian, and those that did it should stand up, admit it, and take their punishment.

They do a lot worse than that to their own. Schools are being built in Afghanistan but the Talibs do not agree with girls getting educated, so if they find a girl who goes to school they will throw acid in her face. They will kill anyone they get their hands on that is involved in any way with the government, even if all they do is supply the office supplies.

[Marvin Hagler]

monkey gland said:

Yes.

Even if it was a member of your family?
Answer truthfully.

[Jimbeaux]

Marvin Hagler said:

There are black prisons that the US have in undisclosed locations where there is torure but no media frenzy. Guantanamo also has secret underground bunkers where red cross and other agencies have no access.

"Black prisons in undisclosed locations" - How do you know this as, by your own account, they are undisclosed?

"Guantanamo also has secret underground bunkers" - So, where did you obtain the Gitmo Schematics; Moonfakers.com?

[Jimbeaux]

Marvin Hagler said:

Jimbeaux said:

Really? So, you are the deciding factor on who is and is not a Muslim? If you think this has nothing to do with "Muslims", then you are misguided. PC BS aside, it has very much to do with it.

"One of Johnson's Saudi colleagues, Abdullah Al-Momin, published a petition message to the kidnappers through Al-Arabia TV. He asked them in the name of Islam to free Johnson as he has nothing to do with the American military, "if they are really Muslims they should release him" Abdullah said."

I have already discussed this issue with you at large in the new year, as did my fellow boxing colleague RockyBalboa. You didnt understand then so you wont understand now.

Nuff said.

WTF has what you just posted pertain in anyway to the point I made except to illustrate that now Abdullah Al-Momin has joined you as the deciding duo of who is and is not Muslim??

[Marvin Hagler]

Dixie68 said:

Nothing, but then what have a few bad apples in the Army got to do with the Army as a whole? People may be sickened by this but I know there are no people more sickened than the average serviceman/woman, if for no other reason than people like Marvin here are quick to tar everyone with the same brush. I was serving in Iraq when this happened and nobody else knew about it, they carried it out in secret because they knew it was wrong and they knew the Army would have hammered them for it.
Seriously, do you think we had 'torture a civilian' parties or something? You will hear no complaints from us about these idiots getting punished for what they did, but I'm getting seriously pissed off with people telling us we are/were scum because of the actions of stupid individuals. Spend a day in the boots of the guys who are still out in Afghanistan and then come and tell me they're scum.

Fair points. I do not (and did not) mean to tarnish all the army as scum.
There are lots of good guys, but the bad apples leave a very bad taste that taints ones opinion of everyone (even though I know this is wrong to do).

I must clarify that my grandfather was in the British army in World war II so I know of the respect that one should give to the military personnel.

Editied to add: For the record I never used the word 'scum' but I was overtly critical of everyone in the military (irrespective of good and bad apples).

Edited by Marvin Hagler on Thursday 8th September 16:21

[Marvin Hagler]

Jimbeaux said:

"Black prisons in undisclosed locations" - How do you know this as, by your own account, they are undisclosed?

"Guantanamo also has secret underground bunkers" - So, where did you obtain the Gitmo Schematics; Moonfakers.com?

I dont know nothing Jim. Wikipedia does though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

[Jimbeaux]

Marvin Hagler said:

Jimbeaux said:

"Black prisons in undisclosed locations" - How do you know this as, by your own account, they are undisclosed?

"Guantanamo also has secret underground bunkers" - So, where did you obtain the Gitmo Schematics; Moonfakers.com?

I dont know nothing Jim.

Well, now that that is established, the day is not a total loss.

[defblade]

monkey gland said:

Marvin Hagler said:

Would you be happy if the soldeiers deployed in the recent UK riots barbarically tortured the looters because 'they are trained killers'?

Yes.

I was going to post a similar answer, but on long reflection decided "no". Just.

[monkey gland]

Marvin Hagler said:

Even if it was a member of your family?
Answer truthfully.

Then no, although none of them would if given the chance.

[Disgusted]

Marvin, you should consider applying for a job at the BBC.

[Rollin]

Mr Hagler, you must understand that as soon as a British soldier does anything wrong, they are not a British soldier anymore. The bad things they did are then nothing to do with the British army and do not represent the British army in any way.

[Shar2]

Victor McDade said:

And we're now doing our best to reverse all that good work.

By engaging in such wars in the first place we are making it MORE likely that our country is given 'away to extremists' as mentioned by the ex-MI5 chief and even call me Dave. Let's not pretend the Iraq adventure was ever about British security when it clearly wasn't,

Unfortunately I have to agree with you there. I never believed in the hype that Bliar and Bush were spinning on the information, and believe we should never have started either this or the Afghan wars. GW1 was justified, the rest wasn't.

[Mojocvh]

Marvin Hagler said:

Dixie68 said:

Nothing, but then what have a few bad apples in the Army got to do with the Army as a whole? People may be sickened by this but I know there are no people more sickened than the average serviceman/woman, if for no other reason than people like Marvin here are quick to tar everyone with the same brush. I was serving in Iraq when this happened and nobody else knew about it, they carried it out in secret because they knew it was wrong and they knew the Army would have hammered them for it.
Seriously, do you think we had 'torture a civilian' parties or something? You will hear no complaints from us about these idiots getting punished for what they did, but I'm getting seriously pissed off with people telling us we are/were scum because of the actions of stupid individuals. Spend a day in the boots of the guys who are still out in Afghanistan and then come and tell me they're scum.

Fair points. I do not (and did not) mean to tarnish all the army as scum.
There are lots of good guys, but the bad apples leave a very bad taste that taints ones opinion of everyone (even though I know this is wrong to do).

I must clarify that my grandfather was in the British army in World war II so I know of the respect that one should give to the military personnel.

Editied to add: For the record I never used the word 'scum' but I was overtly critical of everyone in the military (irrespective of good and bad apples).

Edited by Marvin Hagler on Thursday 8th September 16:21

You really do not deserve a reply. Small minded, ignorant, you have NO idea of the harsh realities of warfare but are happy to pass snide remarks and unwarranted opinions.

Oh BTW never mid the squaddies who did the acts, which was terrible enough, where are their direct superiors, those who should have been on top of this in a flash.