John Terry to face charges

[br d]

TheHeretic said:

br d said:

Okay, fundamentally we agree. But I think the category mistake stands, we are are arguing two different issues. As you well know (and I have learned much from your posts here) whatever is current is not necessarily correct. I care not what we have, prejudice based on colour is the ultimate ignorance.

I never said it wasn't. I was arguing the legal point. Black chap feels offence, CPS, police, etc. white fellow, (yourself, for example), shrug of the shoulders, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I'm not willing to drag this out but you are still categorising.
Whether the society I live in shrugs its shoulders in one direction or another does not alter the basic point. The offence felt cannot (or should not) be gauged by the contemporary judicial situation.

You know what though, you're probably right. Cultural mores probably do override basic human morality, even in this Facebook age. The sooner the English, the Yemeni and the Uruguay learn to get along the better.

But then god might disagree

[TheHeretic]

br d said:

I'm not willing to drag this out but you are still categorising.
Whether the society I live in shrugs its shoulders in one direction or another does not alter the basic point. The offence felt cannot (or should not) be gauged by the contemporary judicial situation.

You know what though, you're probably right. Cultural mores probably do override basic human morality, even in this Facebook age. The sooner the English, the Yemeni and the Uruguay learn to get along the better.

But then god might disagree

I'm not arguing that the offence if different in each case.

[Ozzie Osmond]

ATTAK Z said:

for me it's the c^^t bit that's offensive...

Why??

[Willy Nilly]

Jasandjules said:

Willy Nilly said:

I can't help thinking that Ferdinand is a big girls blouse. In the early '80s he would have had the whole stadium making monkey noises and throwing bananas at him. Now some one may or may not have called him a fking black and he plays the race card. Rooney must have been called far worse, what with being a bald (but not any more), fat, thick scouser that shags old prossers.

And you think that's right?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but he is a professional footballer not a primary school child. In the heat of battle of the sports field there will be industrial language, if this is not to his liking then maybe he should consider a career change.

[JensenA]

JT shouted an insult to a fellow grown up Man. The man happened to be black.

If he was welsh, he would probably have shouted 'You Welsh c***.
Scottish, he would have shouted 'You Scottish c***'
If he was Fat, he may have shouted you 'Fat c****'
If it was Peter Crouch he may have shouted 'You Lanky c***'

None of the above statements would imply that JT is categorically racist against the Welsh or Scots, neither does he despise fat or tall people. It was a comment made in a footbal match, when emptions are running high. It's a ridiculous waste of time and money to presecute him, I can't even bring myself to say he was wrong, he wasn't, he just spouted something out in the heat of the moment. maybe from now on we will see footballers shouting out in anger "I say old chap you really are a silly little sausage" - actually looking at that, 'old' is ageist, and 'chap' is sexist.

What a fckin country we live in!!

[Willy Nilly]

JensenA said:

JT shouted an insult to a fellow grown up Man. The man happened to be black.

If he was welsh, he would probably have shouted 'You Welsh c***.
Scottish, he would have shouted 'You Scottish c***'
If he was Fat, he may have shouted you 'Fat c****'
If it was Peter Crouch he may have shouted 'You Lanky c***'

None of the above statements would imply that JT is categorically racist against the Welsh or Scots, neither does he despise fat or tall people. It was a comment made in a footbal match, when emptions are running high. It's a ridiculous waste of time and money to presecute him, I can't even bring myself to say he was wrong, he wasn't, he just spouted something out in the heat of the moment. maybe from now on we will see footballers shouting out in anger "I say old chap you really are a silly little sausage" - actually looking at that, 'old' is ageist, and 'chap' is sexist.

What a fckin country we live in!!

Nail Head

[catso]

Willy Nilly said:

JensenA said:

JT shouted an insult to a fellow grown up Man. The man happened to be black.

If he was welsh, he would probably have shouted 'You Welsh c***.
Scottish, he would have shouted 'You Scottish c***'
If he was Fat, he may have shouted you 'Fat c****'
If it was Peter Crouch he may have shouted 'You Lanky c***'

None of the above statements would imply that JT is categorically racist against the Welsh or Scots, neither does he despise fat or tall people. It was a comment made in a footbal match, when emptions are running high. It's a ridiculous waste of time and money to presecute him, I can't even bring myself to say he was wrong, he wasn't, he just spouted something out in the heat of the moment. maybe from now on we will see footballers shouting out in anger "I say old chap you really are a silly little sausage" - actually looking at that, 'old' is ageist, and 'chap' is sexist.

What a fckin country we live in!!

Nail Head

Indeed.

[Randy Winkman]

catso said:

Willy Nilly said:

JensenA said:

JT shouted an insult to a fellow grown up Man. The man happened to be black.

If he was welsh, he would probably have shouted 'You Welsh c***.
Scottish, he would have shouted 'You Scottish c***'
If he was Fat, he may have shouted you 'Fat c****'
If it was Peter Crouch he may have shouted 'You Lanky c***'

None of the above statements would imply that JT is categorically racist against the Welsh or Scots, neither does he despise fat or tall people. It was a comment made in a footbal match, when emptions are running high. It's a ridiculous waste of time and money to presecute him, I can't even bring myself to say he was wrong, he wasn't, he just spouted something out in the heat of the moment. maybe from now on we will see footballers shouting out in anger "I say old chap you really are a silly little sausage" - actually looking at that, 'old' is ageist, and 'chap' is sexist.

What a fckin country we live in!!

Nail Head

Indeed.

Yup - I'd have punched him straight in the teeth - like a man.

[Zaxxon]

catso said:

Willy Nilly said:

JensenA said:

JT shouted an insult to a fellow grown up Man. The man happened to be black.

If he was welsh, he would probably have shouted 'You Welsh c***.
Scottish, he would have shouted 'You Scottish c***'
If he was Fat, he may have shouted you 'Fat c****'
If it was Peter Crouch he may have shouted 'You Lanky c***'

None of the above statements would imply that JT is categorically racist against the Welsh or Scots, neither does he despise fat or tall people. It was a comment made in a footbal match, when emptions are running high. It's a ridiculous waste of time and money to presecute him, I can't even bring myself to say he was wrong, he wasn't, he just spouted something out in the heat of the moment. maybe from now on we will see footballers shouting out in anger "I say old chap you really are a silly little sausage" - actually looking at that, 'old' is ageist, and 'chap' is sexist.

What a fckin country we live in!!

Nail Head

Indeed.

All true, however football is very sensitive regarding racism. The FA have made a huge effort to 'stamp out racism' so when the captain of the national team is alleged to have said something that would get you suspended and sacked in the workplace, knees will be jerked and examples made.

[BMWBen]

JensenA said:

JT shouted an insult to a fellow grown up Man. The man happened to be black.

If he was welsh, he would probably have shouted 'You Welsh c***.
Scottish, he would have shouted 'You Scottish c***'
If he was Fat, he may have shouted you 'Fat c****'
If it was Peter Crouch he may have shouted 'You Lanky c***'

None of the above statements would imply that JT is categorically racist against the Welsh or Scots, neither does he despise fat or tall people. It was a comment made in a footbal match, when emptions are running high. It's a ridiculous waste of time and money to presecute him, I can't even bring myself to say he was wrong, he wasn't, he just spouted something out in the heat of the moment. maybe from now on we will see footballers shouting out in anger "I say old chap you really are a silly little sausage" - actually looking at that, 'old' is ageist, and 'chap' is sexist.

What a fckin country we live in!!

Disagree -the point is that those are generically offensive to all people in those categories, even when said to one. The race issue is one which is particularly sensitive, because race has been used as a basis for persecution in the recent past and is still a major issue in our society.

So, they're all offensive but race is potentially more offensive than the others and is the only one that is strictly illegal on that basis.

And to play devil's advocate, what effect does the "heat of the moment" have on whether something is morally acceptable exactly?

You might murder your wife in the "heat of the moment", does that make it ok?

[DonkeyApple]

BMWBen said:

Disagree -the point is that those are generically offensive to all people in those categories, even when said to one. The race issue is one which is particularly sensitive, because race has been used as a basis for persecution in the recent past and is still a major issue in our society.

So, they're all offensive but race is potentially more offensive than the others and is the only one that is strictly illegal on that basis.

And to play devil's advocate, what effect does the "heat of the moment" have on whether something is morally acceptable exactly?

You might murder your wife in the "heat of the moment", does that make it ok?

I'm with this. Those who think the term 'black' is no more offensive than 'white' as an abusive term are comprehensively failing to understand context.

What that monkey said to the other monkey is reprehensible. Especially in the public environment in which it was done and his standing.

[anonymous-user]

ben_h100 said:

If he is found guilty it's his England career over, at least.

At least that's one good thing that will come out of this.

[Puggit]

Is there any evidence to this crime? I've given up watching the over-paid primadonnas most of the time, so I haven't seen it.

[hornetrider]

catso said:

Willy Nilly said:

JensenA said:

JT shouted an insult to a fellow grown up Man. The man happened to be black.

If he was welsh, he would probably have shouted 'You Welsh c***.
Scottish, he would have shouted 'You Scottish c***'
If he was Fat, he may have shouted you 'Fat c****'
If it was Peter Crouch he may have shouted 'You Lanky c***'

None of the above statements would imply that JT is categorically racist against the Welsh or Scots, neither does he despise fat or tall people. It was a comment made in a footbal match, when emptions are running high. It's a ridiculous waste of time and money to presecute him, I can't even bring myself to say he was wrong, he wasn't, he just spouted something out in the heat of the moment. maybe from now on we will see footballers shouting out in anger "I say old chap you really are a silly little sausage" - actually looking at that, 'old' is ageist, and 'chap' is sexist.

What a fckin country we live in!!

Nail Head

Indeed.

Hang on. Just to be clear, you're equating racism with tall-ism and fat-ism?

[wolves_wanderer]

DonkeyApple said:

What that monkey said to the other monkey is reprehensible. Especially in the public environment in which it was done and his standing.

That's racist.

[DonkeyApple]

wolves_wanderer said:

DonkeyApple said:

What that monkey said to the other monkey is reprehensible. Especially in the public environment in which it was done and his standing.

That's racist.

At best it is an insult to monkeys.

[silver.fox.2008]

JensenA said:

JT shouted an insult to a fellow grown up Man. The man happened to be black.

If he was welsh, he would probably have shouted 'You Welsh c***.
Scottish, he would have shouted 'You Scottish c***'
If he was Fat, he may have shouted you 'Fat c****'
If it was Peter Crouch he may have shouted 'You Lanky c***'

None of the above statements would imply that JT is categorically racist against the Welsh or Scots, neither does he despise fat or tall people. It was a comment made in a footbal match, when emptions are running high. It's a ridiculous waste of time and money to presecute him, I can't even bring myself to say he was wrong, he wasn't, he just spouted something out in the heat of the moment. maybe from now on we will see footballers shouting out in anger "I say old chap you really are a silly little sausage" - actually looking at that, 'old' is ageist, and 'chap' is sexist.

What a fckin country we live in!!

If he was Chinese....'you fking slit eyed '?
If he was mexian....'you fking border nigga'?
If he was Pakistani....'you fking '?
etc etc

Still acceptable?

[unrepentant]

BMWBen said:

Disagree -the point is that those are generically offensive to all people in those categories, even when said to one. The race issue is one which is particularly sensitive, because race has been used as a basis for persecution in the recent past and is still a major issue in our society.

So, they're all offensive but race is potentially more offensive than the others and is the only one that is strictly illegal on that basis.

And to play devil's advocate, what effect does the "heat of the moment" have on whether something is morally acceptable exactly?

You might murder your wife in the "heat of the moment", does that make it ok?

^^^^^^^^^ What he said.

I'm pretty shocked at all the apologist "take it like a man comments" on the thread. The 1960's is over and anyone who thinks it's ok to call anyone, be they footballer or anyone else, a black Ct really needs to go back to school.

[DP1]

BMWBen said:

Disagree -the point is that those are generically offensive to all people in those categories, even when said to one. The race issue is one which is particularly sensitive, because race has been used as a basis for persecution in the recent past and is still a major issue in our society.

So, they're all offensive but race is potentially more offensive than the others and is the only one that is strictly illegal on that basis.

And to play devil's advocate, what effect does the "heat of the moment" have on whether something is morally acceptable exactly?

You might murder your wife in the "heat of the moment", does that make it ok?

Absolutley correct especially the 'heat of the moment' comment. You do not see this in other sports such as rugby where emotions also run high. It infuriates me that football considers itself such an exception to the civilised rules of behaviour.

Were I to be disciplined at work like Saurez I would be sacked, that's it. I would not be expect to get messages of support, appeals on my behalf etc.

Premier league players should realise that they are role models and with that there are certain responsibilities.

[Chrisw666]

I'm a fat bloke with Ginger hair (Feel my pain).

Standard insults hurled at me by people are normally 'you fat ' 'you ginger ' or the old classic 'you fat ginger '.

Now I don't have a fking group of lawyers and hand wringing wkers defending my 'uman rights innit.

Instead I tend to applaud the person abusing me and congratulate them on their eyesight.

If Black/Brown people took the chip off their shoulder and did something similar then the world would be much more relaxed. As it stands the genuine racists in society (rather than someone who calls another man a name in an argument) are simply gathering support from fairly liberal folk like me.