Left or right of your parents?

[Asterix]

mattnunn & Puggit earlier...

[MartinM]

mattnunn said:

Clang...


There is nothing leftist about a poor work ethic, infact the exact opposite, I'd propose the ethic of work for reward promotes that a monetary value is given to the value of "work" which in turn lowers standards, because people do the bare minimum needed to secure payment or maximise reward.

Clang back at you...

Where did I say anything about a poor work ethic? Many fathers, myself included, work as hard as they can to provide for their families financially. Does that mean that I won't do anything unless paid for? Absolutely not, I put in many hours and effort for little or no financial reward.

As you brought it up; a poor work ethic, shouting the odds over pay and pensions, refusal to work unless financial demands are met? These are all traits that have been demonstrated pretty much solely by "The Left" in recent history.

[S10GTA]

You need a same as parents option

[mattnunn]

MartinM said:

mattnunn said:

Clang...


There is nothing leftist about a poor work ethic, infact the exact opposite, I'd propose the ethic of work for reward promotes that a monetary value is given to the value of "work" which in turn lowers standards, because people do the bare minimum needed to secure payment or maximise reward.

Clang back at you...

Where did I say anything about a poor work ethic? Many fathers, myself included, work as hard as they can to provide for their families financially. Does that mean that I won't do anything unless paid for? Absolutely not, I put in many hours and effort for little or no financial reward.

As you brought it up; a poor work ethic, shouting the odds over pay and pensions, refusal to work unless financial demands are met? These are all traits that have been demonstrated pretty much solely by "The Left" in recent history.

So what DID you mean by your statement? You used the term capitalist work ethic - what does this mean?

[Puggit]

mattnunn said:

So what DID you mean by your statement? You used the term capitalist work ethic - what does this mean?

In my case I get paid by results. I over-achieved last year by obtaining 150% of my target (which had been doubled from the previous year). As a result I took home some good money.

However, we cannot afford to have a workplace where the targets are too high to achieve a living wage (as we hear about in the sweatshops of Asia)

[Twincam16]

900T-R said:

Silver said:

though bizarrely I still get labelled as right-wing because of my views on motoring and car ownership.

That's you and me both then. Shame the supposedly left-libertarian cannot see how authoritarian their views are where (not just) 'transport' is concerned.

Me too. Why are cars automatically seen as a right-wing 'thing' by so many people? Especially given that so many classics are essentially modern art, traditionally a left-wing pursuit.

[turbobloke]

Twincam16 said:

900T-R said:

Silver said:

though bizarrely I still get labelled as right-wing because of my views on motoring and car ownership.

That's you and me both then. Shame the supposedly left-libertarian cannot see how authoritarian their views are where (not just) 'transport' is concerned.

Me too. Why are cars automatically seen as a right-wing 'thing' by so many people? Especially given that so many classics are essentially modern art, traditionally a left-wing pursuit.

It's all about individual transport vs collective transport, private vs public, comrade.

Not to mention that cars cost varying amounts of money and as such can get the average class warrior worked up when they reveal 'inequality'.

[900T-R]

turbobloke said:

It's all about individual transport vs collective transport, private vs public, comrade.

We know where the authoritarian left stands 9which is by the way all but identical with what is supposed to be the 'far right'); what's baffling is that the same sentiment seems to be largely shared within circles commonly described as the 'libertarian left'.

[mattnunn]

Puggit said:

mattnunn said:

So what DID you mean by your statement? You used the term capitalist work ethic - what does this mean?

In my case I get paid by results. I over-achieved last year by obtaining 150% of my target (which had been doubled from the previous year). As a result I took home some good money.

However, we cannot afford to have a workplace where the targets are too high to achieve a living wage (as we hear about in the sweatshops of Asia)

You consider that to be a capatilist work ethic? I don't think your employer would. You have clearly achieved above your target for reasons other than capital gain, otherwise you would have stop working at 101% of your target. Other factors were at work to go on to achieve that other 49%.

The idea that union membership and collective bargaining is about squeezing money out of companies they can't afford or a form of blackmail to companies is a sad shame, I can see how it comes about, but I don't think it's the core ideal of union membership.

[IainT]

markcoznottz said:

900T-R said:

That's you and me both then. Shame the supposedly left-libertarian cannot see how authoritarian their views are where (not just) 'transport' is concerned.

Yes liberal nowdays means stopping others accruing wealth, whilst doing everything to further ones own nest. Step forward clegg and cable. Oh the irony, a business secretary that secretly hates success in others.

Liberal (as in "Liberal Democrat") does not equate to Libertarian.

IMO Lib Dims are just lefties that are too embarrassed to vote Labour.

Edited by IainT on Thursday 2nd August 15:57

Edited by IainT on Thursday 2nd August 15:58

[mattnunn]

Twincam16 said:

900T-R said:

Silver said:

though bizarrely I still get labelled as right-wing because of my views on motoring and car ownership.

That's you and me both then. Shame the supposedly left-libertarian cannot see how authoritarian their views are where (not just) 'transport' is concerned.

Me too. Why are cars automatically seen as a right-wing 'thing' by so many people? Especially given that so many classics are essentially modern art, traditionally a left-wing pursuit.

I think it's probably because there is an "assumption" of a fact that car pollution is causing some unreversible and lasting damage to the planet and knock on problems for the future of humanity. The fact people would ignore this "assumed" fact and use their cars for personal gain to the detriment of wider society, presumably with a proportionally larger side effect to the poorer and less able to cope sections of society (who can't afford personal oxygen tents or whatever distopian view has been adopted by society) your seen as acting in an antisocial manner, more in common with the "right"

There is a lot of assumptions in there though obviously.

[Puggit]

mattnunn said:

Puggit said:

mattnunn said:

So what DID you mean by your statement? You used the term capitalist work ethic - what does this mean?

In my case I get paid by results. I over-achieved last year by obtaining 150% of my target (which had been doubled from the previous year). As a result I took home some good money.

However, we cannot afford to have a workplace where the targets are too high to achieve a living wage (as we hear about in the sweatshops of Asia)

You consider that to be a capatilist work ethic? I don't think your employer would. You have clearly achieved above your target for reasons other than capital gain, otherwise you would have stop working at 101% of your target. Other factors were at work to go on to achieve that other 49%.

After 100% it's ALL about capital gain.

[crankedup]

900T-R said:

Found this rather shocking, although it reinforces my belief that Europe is heading for the Fourth Reich(if not there already):



Mine - same as it ever was...

Suggested that a few weeks ago in this forum, a few posters could barely contain their resentment bellowing out that I must be a &%(@#%^%#@ or something. Sometimes in politics you need to look back to see whats ahead.

[P-Jay]

Mum's a Daily Express reader who moans about emigrants, distrusts other races and faiths and hates 'scroungers'.

Despite this, she lives in a Islamic Country, and spends her days spending the old man's money he earns being an economic migrant and simply cannot understand they she's not entitled to Child Allowance "because all those pram pushers are!" despite being a tax exile.

So it's fair to say as a bleed heart lefty I'm quite a bit further left, and have a better understanding of irony.

[Twincam16]

900T-R said:

We know where the authoritarian left stands 9which is by the way all but identical with what is supposed to be the 'far right'); what's baffling is that the same sentiment seems to be largely shared within circles commonly described as the 'libertarian left'.

I don't get that either - most totally laissez-faire social-liberals I meet are positively Hitlerian when it comes to cars. Partly it's environmental, but IMO it's also a city-centric, urban-elitist thing too.

[Halb]

mattnunn said:

It doesn't, although you could argue it's centrally funded still just not government run, it's confusing for sure, pragmatism is easilly masked.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19073700

Quite easy to cut waiting times (seen too many docs on how the smash and grab private firms used slip shod practise and allowed 'other' costs to fall on the NHS), also fairly easy to claim improved care and delivered savings.
I'm more inclined to agree with the poster who reckons our main system works better. If they would stop with the quotas.

[Asterix]

P-Jay said:

Mum's a Daily Express reader who moans about emigrants, distrusts other races and faiths and hates 'scroungers'.

Despite this, she lives in a Islamic Country, and spends her days spending the old man's money he earns being an economic migrant and simply cannot understand they she's not entitled to Child Allowance "because all those pram pushers are!" despite being a tax exile.

So it's fair to say as a bleed heart lefty I'm quite a bit further left, and have a better understanding of irony.

Emigrants or immigrants?

[Sprouts]

My dad was a proper union mon.
My mum didn't seem to give a monkies, but I think she's gone a bit right now.
I left home to live on a kibbutz.

[NAS]

madala said:

....where's the option....."about the same"?

This.

[AJS-]

Well I realise it's a bit late, but I've added the option in.

Maybe I'll let this die in the PH collective conscience for a week or two and come back with a new poll, possible including age.


What's interesting to me is that it seems to my parents (baby boomer) generation it's almost a given that they are more liberal and more socialist in outlook compared with their parents, whereas for my generation I would say it's the other way round. From casual observation, nearly all of my friends are more pro free market, and even more socially conservative than their baby boomer parents.

The free market thing I can understand as it has been basically proved right on an intellectual and practical level, but the social conservatism thing is a bit harder to pin down.

Look out for a rejigged poll in the near future