The death of the high street.
Discussion
So said:
Whilst we were shopping the cleaner was at home taking in goods we'd ordered online.
You've answered your own question already.There's a new acronym in the retail sector - WCAD. Stands for What Can't Amazon Do. Explains why there are now so many coffee bars, hairdressers etc on the High Street these days.
Crippo said:
The Government need to bring in an online turnover tax. This will even up eth game and enable stores to have some faith that they are playing a fair game. Many of the online purchases are bought overseas and benefit the UK not one jot. Entrepreneurial business are closing to be replaced by warehouse jobs or delivery jobs and the culture of our once thriving town centres is lost. its more than just pure economics...there is a much bigger picture
IMO its got sod all to do with money. I don't shop online because it is cheaper, I shop because it is easier. The local town is Maidenhead. Parking is a pain in the arse, and expensive. It would have to be an absolutely vast tax to persuade me to drive into the local town. I also don't get what is so entrepreneurial about buying some stuff (mostly from China like the online stuff), arranging it on some shelves and waiting for people to come and buy it.
Town centres have a few main issues.
Parking - absolute pain in the arse.
Towns are now geared up for people to spend 2, 3 or more hours in town.
Most people want to pop in to get the one thing they want, park outside or close to the shop they want to use, hop in, hop out, job done.
Wrong product at the wrong time of the year.
Summer product being delivered now, although we will probably have snow in March, and winter product arriving in July even though summer has only just started and we will probably be outside at the pub until October these days too.
This was started by the big stores saying "We want it early as we get a longer season".
"No you won't! You will owe the invoices before any of it has even sold!"
Rates and rents.
These are getting stupid. I am a footwear and clothing retailer in a small market town outside Norwich, they wanted to increase my rates to £33k this year, that means the first £100k through the till covers rates, then mortgage is the next £100k.
I have seen the rates and rents for some of the stores in Norwich and it is simply not possible to run a retail store on those premises.
Back of a fag packet maths shows this quite easily. Unfortunately many don't realise what it costs to run a business, they start up, blow all the investment, go bust and the property is rented out again and the cycle continues. While it continues and there is fresh meat coming through the landlords, councils, banks etc. don't care. But there will come a time when the units sit empty.
Online?
Yeah it is an issue as someone somewhere will have the product you want to buy discounted, it may be their last one and they want it out, it is probably the wrong size or colour, but that is the new price point as far as the customer is concerned.
Amazon is an issue, not paying their proper taxes means they are basically offering services such as next day or same day delivery and pick up again if not right at zero cost to themselves.
If I was allowed to pay less than 1% in tax I can tell you now I would be a multi millionaire with 3 years, we could grow at a silly rate and people would use us because we are cheaper than anyone else, of course, my competition would disappear within the same period, and then we are back to 'the high street is dying' again.
We need a level playing field and we need to make it easy for people to use the high street, and when they get there for the right product to be there at the right time.
It isn't rocket science, problem is, people who make these decisions are councillors and politicians, and so you don't really have much hope unless you get really lucky.
Parking - absolute pain in the arse.
Towns are now geared up for people to spend 2, 3 or more hours in town.
Most people want to pop in to get the one thing they want, park outside or close to the shop they want to use, hop in, hop out, job done.
Wrong product at the wrong time of the year.
Summer product being delivered now, although we will probably have snow in March, and winter product arriving in July even though summer has only just started and we will probably be outside at the pub until October these days too.
This was started by the big stores saying "We want it early as we get a longer season".
"No you won't! You will owe the invoices before any of it has even sold!"
Rates and rents.
These are getting stupid. I am a footwear and clothing retailer in a small market town outside Norwich, they wanted to increase my rates to £33k this year, that means the first £100k through the till covers rates, then mortgage is the next £100k.
I have seen the rates and rents for some of the stores in Norwich and it is simply not possible to run a retail store on those premises.
Back of a fag packet maths shows this quite easily. Unfortunately many don't realise what it costs to run a business, they start up, blow all the investment, go bust and the property is rented out again and the cycle continues. While it continues and there is fresh meat coming through the landlords, councils, banks etc. don't care. But there will come a time when the units sit empty.
Online?
Yeah it is an issue as someone somewhere will have the product you want to buy discounted, it may be their last one and they want it out, it is probably the wrong size or colour, but that is the new price point as far as the customer is concerned.
Amazon is an issue, not paying their proper taxes means they are basically offering services such as next day or same day delivery and pick up again if not right at zero cost to themselves.
If I was allowed to pay less than 1% in tax I can tell you now I would be a multi millionaire with 3 years, we could grow at a silly rate and people would use us because we are cheaper than anyone else, of course, my competition would disappear within the same period, and then we are back to 'the high street is dying' again.
We need a level playing field and we need to make it easy for people to use the high street, and when they get there for the right product to be there at the right time.
It isn't rocket science, problem is, people who make these decisions are councillors and politicians, and so you don't really have much hope unless you get really lucky.
Fast Bug said:
Guildford was free parking in the car park I was in after 4. Sadly I got there at half 3 so still had to pay for an hour, but I thought it was a nice thing to do. Parking was also free all last weekend in Petersfield which is my local town, so maybe the councils are trying to help out in the run up to Christmas?
It's my area too, it does seem a nice idea shame that you seem to be the sole advertising campaign, not heard a word on the radio or via word of mouth.It's like most things these days (grand prix, festivals etc) it would be great if you could get teleported to/from it!
grumbledoak said:
Councils have killed most of our high streets, either grasping for cash via parking charges or simply deterring visits with anti-car measures.
The out of town centres are now normally a far better experience.
And Amazon is simply far easier than either.
Absolutely agree. It seems odd that some are whingeing about the death of the high street, when for years they have been making getting to, stopping and shopping in a high street as expensive inconvenient, and difficult as they can, well sprinkled with methods of catching and fining those who do visit the places by car, for having the temerity to want to get there in a car, so that they can carry whatever they buy home. The out of town centres are now normally a far better experience.
And Amazon is simply far easier than either.
It seems only those who are within walking distance of the high street, or who don't mind using a bus (so that the nutter sitting next to them on it, can pick his nose, and wipe it off on their coat
, can actually get to a high street, and even then they may have to carry whatever they buy there for miles to get it home. getting chilled/frozen foods home from your typical high street Iceland, before it thaws, would be a typical issue.Dog Star said:
Wacky Racer said:
Depends on the part of the country...
There are very few empty units in my local town Bury, seems to be doing nicely with a thriving market.
Nearby Rochdale and Bolton has gone to the dogs.
I disagree; I split any shopping between Rochdale and Bury; I live near Rochdale and spent my youth there or in Bury (where I went to school). Back in the '80s it was the other way round; Rochdale with the bustling centre. Bury appears to now be getting quieter and there are more empty shops. Rochdale was simply waaaay ahead of the high street death curve - practically communist council, stratospheric business rates (my dad was the local vet and I remember his single biggest bugbear being the rates), expensive parking etc. I really thought the place was done for.There are very few empty units in my local town Bury, seems to be doing nicely with a thriving market.
Nearby Rochdale and Bolton has gone to the dogs.
Parking has been free for a good few years now (bit too late to save the high street, but it's unusual these days), and someone with a sensible head on their shoulders has made some great changes; the town centre looks stunning now (shame about the area that rings it though) and puts most places to shame. Super job. They've also realised that shopping is dead and are redeveloping it to cater for leisure (cinemas, bars, restaurants etc). A mate of mine has just opened a bar in the town centre and it's a credit to the place, which is definitely a good night out now. A lot of other towns are going to have to make this adjustment or die. I've a great deal of civic pride and it's good to see them doing something right for once - although I'm sure lots of people who live in some crowded southern hell-hole will sneer at the place.
In Bury currently there are virtually no empty shops in The Mill Gate and the new Rock shopping centre at the other end of town and "The Rock" main shopping street is virtually fully occupied.
The old PC world and B&M are empty, and have been for a year or so, but they have re located elsewhere in town.
Seven or eight years ago 20% of shops in the Millgate were empty.
Must admit, not been to Rochdale for a couple of years to be fair, just going off what friends tell me.
Car parking in Bury is not great, but no worse than any other town.
rxe said:
IMO its got sod all to do with money. I don't shop online because it is cheaper, I shop because it is easier. The local town is Maidenhead. Parking is a pain in the arse, and expensive. It would have to be an absolutely vast tax to persuade me to drive into the local town.
I also don't get what is so entrepreneurial about buying some stuff (mostly from China like the online stuff), arranging it on some shelves and waiting for people to come and buy it.
What percentage of the high street is stuff like that though? I also don't get what is so entrepreneurial about buying some stuff (mostly from China like the online stuff), arranging it on some shelves and waiting for people to come and buy it.
It is mostly touchy feely stuff on the high street, clothing, footwear, jewellery, homeware etc.
You're right about making it easy though.
I used to go into Norwich city centre 2-3 times a week when I could park on the street near the shop I wanted to use.
Now it is more like 2-3 times a year, when I have no choice.
Actually that is not true, I probably go to John Lewis 6-10 times a year, but that is drive in, into store, grab what I need and back out again.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
What do you suggest? If there are no shops, do you think there will be cafes, bars, restaurants or for that matter any people around?
You may get a handful of places in the UK where this could work, where shops are near lots of other businesses, but they will be the exception rather than the rule.
Local high street is c. 15% boarded up shops, a couple of mobile phone shops, banks, umpteen charity & coffee shops, & some real s
te like M & Co, Edinburgh Woolen Mill, Peacocks, & other assorted scummy chav shops. They widened all the already wide pavements, thus getting rid of at least 60 car parking spaces, changed the traffic light phasing to cause gridlock, put double yellow lines everywhere, & seemingly double the price of parking every year, together with pay & display machines that don't give change & SS style parking wardens.
Its almost totally strangled a previously pleasant market town, & the local council wonder why....
te like M & Co, Edinburgh Woolen Mill, Peacocks, & other assorted scummy chav shops. They widened all the already wide pavements, thus getting rid of at least 60 car parking spaces, changed the traffic light phasing to cause gridlock, put double yellow lines everywhere, & seemingly double the price of parking every year, together with pay & display machines that don't give change & SS style parking wardens.Its almost totally strangled a previously pleasant market town, & the local council wonder why....
Online shopping is great. Especially when you consider that only a handful of sellers use a delivery service that offers a reliable timeslot.
Once you've ordered and after waiting in for the whole day listening out for the doorbell - that never actually rang despite a "We missed you" card materialising through the letterbox - you then get to visit an industrial estate to pick up the parcel. Ironically, the depot is next door to the retail outlets.
Still, it beats the game of hunt the parcel. Is it at the neighbour's? Is it in the now emptied wheeliebin? Is it cleverly and securely hidden under the doormat? Is it lodged in the guttering? Is it actually that mound of rainwater sodden decomposing cardboard that was flung over the hedge?
What's not to like?
Once you've ordered and after waiting in for the whole day listening out for the doorbell - that never actually rang despite a "We missed you" card materialising through the letterbox - you then get to visit an industrial estate to pick up the parcel. Ironically, the depot is next door to the retail outlets.
Still, it beats the game of hunt the parcel. Is it at the neighbour's? Is it in the now emptied wheeliebin? Is it cleverly and securely hidden under the doormat? Is it lodged in the guttering? Is it actually that mound of rainwater sodden decomposing cardboard that was flung over the hedge?
What's not to like?
Cold said:
Online shopping is great. Especially when you consider that only a handful of sellers use a delivery service that offers a reliable timeslot.
Once you've ordered and after waiting in for the whole day listening out for the doorbell - that never actually rang despite a "We missed you" card materialising through the letterbox - you then get to visit an industrial estate to pick up the parcel. Ironically, the depot is next door to the retail outlets.
Still, it beats the game of hunt the parcel. Is it at the neighbour's? Is it in the now emptied wheeliebin? Is it cleverly and securely hidden under the doormat? Is it lodged in the guttering? Is it actually that mound of rainwater sodden decomposing cardboard that was flung over the hedge?
What's not to like?
Only seems to happen when I accidentally order stuff from a company that uses Yodel as its 'courier'.Once you've ordered and after waiting in for the whole day listening out for the doorbell - that never actually rang despite a "We missed you" card materialising through the letterbox - you then get to visit an industrial estate to pick up the parcel. Ironically, the depot is next door to the retail outlets.
Still, it beats the game of hunt the parcel. Is it at the neighbour's? Is it in the now emptied wheeliebin? Is it cleverly and securely hidden under the doormat? Is it lodged in the guttering? Is it actually that mound of rainwater sodden decomposing cardboard that was flung over the hedge?
What's not to like?
You could write a book on this and many have.
There’s no simple answer as to the reason for decline and no simple answer to stop it.
Life has changed there’s no doubt about that.
When I was a teenager most shops were closed on a Sunday and I’d enjoy window shopping, mostly for things I couldn’t afford.
I’d treat myself maybe 4 times a year to a shirt, shoes whatever.
People don’t really do that now. They want lots, they want it now and they want it at a certain price.
Everyone is on the www. Everyone wants a deal.
I actually like going out to shops but a generic mall doesn’t have much appeal.
There’s no simple answer as to the reason for decline and no simple answer to stop it.
Life has changed there’s no doubt about that.
When I was a teenager most shops were closed on a Sunday and I’d enjoy window shopping, mostly for things I couldn’t afford.
I’d treat myself maybe 4 times a year to a shirt, shoes whatever.
People don’t really do that now. They want lots, they want it now and they want it at a certain price.
Everyone is on the www. Everyone wants a deal.
I actually like going out to shops but a generic mall doesn’t have much appeal.
The macro effects will be interesting; the buildings and in-town malls owned by pension funds and speculating banks seeing less return year on year and diminution of property price over-all, revenue to local councils getting less whether by less occupancy or lowered rates to entice from tighter margin business', the spiral of low footfall > lower consumption > less shops > lowered footfall exacerbating the problem presented by online business etc.
Slightly off topic, (because I do think parking access to high streets is a key issue here) but charging high prices for parking to visit patients in hospitals is disgraceful.
No one wants to go to hospitals either as a patient, or someone visiting a patient, and yet exorbitant fees are charged. making visiting a hospital an even worse experience than it already might be.
At least visiting a high street should be a pleasurable experience, so why don't local authorities make a start on re generating the high street by first doing something to aid, getting in and parking there? Some towns have done this, in one they let the local school playground be used as a free car park at weekends, and evenings, and that particular high street is consequents bustling for much of the time. Some LA`s are too thick for their own good.
No one wants to go to hospitals either as a patient, or someone visiting a patient, and yet exorbitant fees are charged. making visiting a hospital an even worse experience than it already might be.
At least visiting a high street should be a pleasurable experience, so why don't local authorities make a start on re generating the high street by first doing something to aid, getting in and parking there? Some towns have done this, in one they let the local school playground be used as a free car park at weekends, and evenings, and that particular high street is consequents bustling for much of the time. Some LA`s are too thick for their own good.
Nickbrapp said:
It Varys, go to Swansea city centre and it’s dead, full of empty shops and homeless people. But go to the out of town retail parks with free parking and it’s heaving all the time. Very few empty units too
You can’t park easily or for free in Swansea city
Go to Cwmbran, where they have free parking, a bus station directly in the town centre and the place is buzzing, constantly busy and at a push 5 empty shop units. Even the house of Fraser is staying open.
People won’t go to the town where you can’t park when retail parks offer it easily.
It’s not a death of the high street it’s yhe death of outdated shops you no longer need, or have no USP. And it’s council incompetence and a hatred for the car pushing people away because they can’t easily access
I mean who really is going to drive to town to pay to park just to pick up something they can get online? Park for free and people will browse a little longer and buy more than what they came for
Absolutely agree, come from Swansea, still visit regularly. 1970s, there wasn't a great deal of difference between Cardiff centre and Swansea's centre. Now it's chalk and cheese, with Cardiff there's parking albeit expensive but it's there and in the centre. The train drops you in the centre, it's straight into quite a lively area with decent shops and lots of food & bars. Swansea, no convenient parking, the train stops at the periphery of the centre, it's then a walk through a pretty depressing and blighted part of the city to the soulless shopping streets, nothing there that would make you think I've got to go there, the biggest shop is a mediocre M&S. Would never 'go to town' as I used to up to the early 80's. It just has the air of a town that's given up and a bit bitter over it's bigger brotherYou can’t park easily or for free in Swansea city
Go to Cwmbran, where they have free parking, a bus station directly in the town centre and the place is buzzing, constantly busy and at a push 5 empty shop units. Even the house of Fraser is staying open.
People won’t go to the town where you can’t park when retail parks offer it easily.
It’s not a death of the high street it’s yhe death of outdated shops you no longer need, or have no USP. And it’s council incompetence and a hatred for the car pushing people away because they can’t easily access
I mean who really is going to drive to town to pay to park just to pick up something they can get online? Park for free and people will browse a little longer and buy more than what they came for
Mind, I now live in Bridgend. It makes Swansea seem like New York & Las Vegas combined. Even the tumbleweed has left for more exciting climes. Phone stores, BrightHouse, charity shops and loads of touts for 'No Fee' solicitors. It's like a dry run for Wall-E the amount of 'scooters' there. If ever a town needed a ticket to Zurich this is it
I think the sad truth is that too many shops are just rubbish. They look shabby, and are staffed by people who don't know what they're selling or how to sell it. There are still successful retailers though like Richer Sounds. They've got an online business, but their stores are always busy for a good reason. You can buy your generic flat-screen TV for what it costs online (a loss-leader I guess) but you can also get proper advice on stuff like home cinema from people who are educated about their products and actually give a st about the customers, who'll then come and install it properly. If it does goes wrong they'll come and sort it. Waterstones are also generally well staffed too. Lots of the others...not so much.
Treat your staff and customers like st and guess what the result is.
t about the customers, who'll then come and install it properly. If it does goes wrong they'll come and sort it. Waterstones are also generally well staffed too. Lots of the others...not so much. Treat your staff and customers like s
t and guess what the result is.anonymous said:
[redacted]
The staff have always been variable, I really don't see it being any worse now than at any point in my memory. For example, the staff in electrical retailers have always been absolutely clueless about the products they sell - maybe a few who know what they're talking about, but they're the exception.But these days parking prices and unit rental costs are ridiculous (Basingstoke town center has a stupid number of unused units, with even more being built outside of the town center that are .... not going to get used in a hurry). The high street is trying to kill itself.
My christmas buying has been a mixture of on-line, in the high street, and the last few things were bought at a mini-market at our office (mainly local independents, but also Menkind set up a stall). Peoples buying habits are changing, the traditional high street is on borrowed time - if it wants to survive it'll have to reinvent itself.
Cold said:
Online shopping is great. Especially when you consider that only a handful of sellers use a delivery service that offers a reliable timeslot.
Once you've ordered and after waiting in for the whole day listening out for the doorbell - that never actually rang despite a "We missed you" card materialising through the letterbox - you then get to visit an industrial estate to pick up the parcel. Ironically, the depot is next door to the retail outlets.
Still, it beats the game of hunt the parcel. Is it at the neighbour's? Is it in the now emptied wheeliebin? Is it cleverly and securely hidden under the doormat? Is it lodged in the guttering? Is it actually that mound of rainwater sodden decomposing cardboard that was flung over the hedge?
What's not to like?
Most of the time I set the delivery address to the office and I imagine most office workers can do the same. Once you've ordered and after waiting in for the whole day listening out for the doorbell - that never actually rang despite a "We missed you" card materialising through the letterbox - you then get to visit an industrial estate to pick up the parcel. Ironically, the depot is next door to the retail outlets.
Still, it beats the game of hunt the parcel. Is it at the neighbour's? Is it in the now emptied wheeliebin? Is it cleverly and securely hidden under the doormat? Is it lodged in the guttering? Is it actually that mound of rainwater sodden decomposing cardboard that was flung over the hedge?
What's not to like?
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