Our newest ambassador in the US,,

[XCP]

I assume his fans think that Trump is actually ept.

[andyeds1234]

DMN said:

Massively damaging to the UK, which is exactly what the leak was designed to do. What a bunch of amateurs we look now.

Who ever the leak is needs charging with Treason.

Russia?

[ChocolateFrog]

ATG said:

rxe said:

But as I said upthread, why the inappropriate language?

"Trump is inept" - this is the analysis of a teenager

"Trump has failed to control factors x, y, x when one would normally expect these to be controlled" - this is a measured, factual position that can be proven or disproven.

Why waffle? The man is inept so you say "he's inept.'

When writing point briefs you're taught to be concise, to the point and say what you mean. What you're writing is often read by important people with limited time.

Write something wordy and it will come back with red pen all over it, I know, I've done it and subsequently redone it.

Have a gander at JSP101 for the MOD's interpretation, I'm sure its broadly similar in the civil service.

Likewise whenever I've had access or handled secret material, you treat it with respect or be fully prepared to face the consequences via the official secrets act.

Somebody has to be charged for this leak.

[anonymous-user]

I get the distinct impression that some people think that an ambassador’s role revolves around the provision of Ferrero Rocher.

[Countdown]

rxe said:

Countdown said:

I don't think there was any practical alternative. As others have already pointed out he's not said anything which would have been a surprise to anybody or which hasn't already been said by those at the highest level within Trump's own government. Boris himself made similar suggestions as far back as 2015. But it would have been hard to negotiate with the Twunt-in-Chief when everybody knows what his views about the Twunt-in-Chief really are.

But as I said upthread, why the inappropriate language?

"Trump is inept" - this is the analysis of a teenager

"Trump has failed to control factors x, y, x when one would normally expect these to be controlled" - this is a measured, factual position that can be proven or disproven.

I'm sorry but that's complete nonsense. KD wasn't doing Trump's annual appraisal, nor was it some kind of science experiment or Court process where each accusation needs to be backed up by evidence and an independent person then pronounces judgement.

It was purely KD's personal opinion about Trump (and that is exactly what diplomats are supposed to do). Anybody receiving that email would have undoubtedly taken it into consideration along with other sources of information and their own interactions with Trump and then made up their own mind.

Do you actually disagree with the statement that Trump is inept? If not then it suggests that KD's judgement is pretty accurate.

[Lotobear]

Everyone knows that Trump is inept but what was foolish was to go on written record expressing that view (when everyone already knows it) in an era when everything is able to 'get out'.

It was badly judged and has caused damage to the UK. Like Trump or not he's here and we need to manage the situation, bite our tongues, and wait for the next president to come along.

[anonymous-user]

I'm being very delicate here.
But hypothetically
I think a lot of stuff may come out shortly about the noble diplomat.
I think some will be glad to see the back of him
And it was known last night he was going

Just saying

[Countdown]

Lotobear said:

Everyone knows that Trump is inept but what was foolish was to go on written record expressing that view (when everyone already knows it) in an era when everything is able to 'get out'.

It was badly judged and has caused damage to the UK. Like Trump or not he's here and we need to manage the situation, bite our tongues, and wait for the next president to come along.

People use email to communicate. That usually involves writing. I'd be stunned if anybody working in an office has never ever sent an email which, if made public, would cause somebody somewhere to be annoyed/embarrassed/shocked. We do it because the chances of the email becoming public are small and because we've a reasonable expectation that only authorised people have access to our emails.

[rxe]

Countdown said:

I'm sorry but that's complete nonsense. KD wasn't doing Trump's annual appraisal, nor was it some kind of science experiment or Court process where each accusation needs to be backed up by evidence and an independent person then pronounces judgement.

It was purely KD's personal opinion about Trump (and that is exactly what diplomats are supposed to do). Anybody receiving that email would have undoubtedly taken it into consideration along with other sources of information and their own interactions with Trump and then made up their own mind.

Do you actually disagree with the statement that Trump is inept? If not then it suggests that KD's judgement is pretty accurate.

Well, that's where the subtlety comes in. Trump is in some cases inept, and in other cases not inept. He's clearly less inept than many people on here because he managed to get elected as President of the USA - I've never tried to be elected to this position, but I understand it is quite hard. So in terms of getting elected - definitely not inept. Is his engagement with North Korea inept - I have no idea - history will probably judge.

To say he's inept is just noise. What has he done that is inept, with specifics and how it might impact the UK is what I'd expect do see.

Apparently it also says he associates with dodgy Russians. Dodgy? Is that really a term? Names, what they do, who they're connected to.

It's absolutely the guy's job to highlight the issues with the administration - but I would expect him to do it in a professional manner.

[Vanden Saab]

Blue62 said:

Vanden Saab said:

Assuming that the leak came from the civil service, I cannot see where else it could have come from as I doubt this memo would be freely available to politicians, I am really impressed that boris has such a good relationship with some of them that they seem to be willing to put their jobs on the line for him...

Again, you're making an assumption and drawing conclusions from there. There is a good chance that the email account has been hacked, which opens up possibilities beyond our own civil service. I think the details (or some thereof) of Hilary's emails were hacked by an outside agency leading up to the election and it proved to be pivotal in the polls at the time.

The assumption was made with regard to our learned diplomats suggestion that Boris and his mates were responsible.... Are you suggesting that he was wrong?

[MDMetal]

rxe said:

Countdown said:

I'm sorry but that's complete nonsense. KD wasn't doing Trump's annual appraisal, nor was it some kind of science experiment or Court process where each accusation needs to be backed up by evidence and an independent person then pronounces judgement.

It was purely KD's personal opinion about Trump (and that is exactly what diplomats are supposed to do). Anybody receiving that email would have undoubtedly taken it into consideration along with other sources of information and their own interactions with Trump and then made up their own mind.

Do you actually disagree with the statement that Trump is inept? If not then it suggests that KD's judgement is pretty accurate.

Well, that's where the subtlety comes in. Trump is in some cases inept, and in other cases not inept. He's clearly less inept than many people on here because he managed to get elected as President of the USA - I've never tried to be elected to this position, but I understand it is quite hard. So in terms of getting elected - definitely not inept. Is his engagement with North Korea inept - I have no idea - history will probably judge.

To say he's inept is just noise. What has he done that is inept, with specifics and how it might impact the UK is what I'd expect do see.

Apparently it also says he associates with dodgy Russians. Dodgy? Is that really a term? Names, what they do, who they're connected to.

It's absolutely the guy's job to highlight the issues with the administration - but I would expect him to do it in a professional manner.

I've no clue if what was written was overly harsh, honesty is obviously key here, is this any worse than what previous ambassadors have written? No clue.

Similarly I go back and forth on Trump, he's quite clearly mental however does that make him inept? Is the definition of Inept not doing things the way your civil servants would like? He clearly has his own way of doing things, are they better? Who knows, some of them are clearly misguided it seems right now but if results are delivered who will be laughing last? NK is an interesting example, yes he's somewhat legitimising the issue however they're talking at some level is that itself not progress? I wouldn't ever want to sit in a meeting with him but he seems to be able to get things in motion and provided he's then hands off it's just a way of working.

I would hope that the ambassador is also delivering notes on how best to work with Trump, if that involves wearing a pink tutu and handing out jelly babies so be it, I've always thought as a country the British do so well because we focus on getting what we want and not having little hissy fits along the way if someones a bit nasty to us.

Anyways if the country your ambassador to refuse to meet you then clearly it's time to go right or wrong. Did Jeremy Hunt think that because Trump remembered the name of the guy who met him when he stepped off the plane he had some leverage?

Edited by MDMetal on Wednesday 10th July 13:39

[Countdown]

rxe said:

Well, that's where the subtlety comes in. Trump is in some cases inept, and in other cases not inept. He's clearly less inept than many people on here because he managed to get elected as President of the USA - I've never tried to be elected to this position, but I understand it is quite hard. So in terms of getting elected - definitely not inept. Is his engagement with North Korea inept - I have no idea - history will probably judge.

To say he's inept is just noise. What has he done that is inept, with specifics and how it might impact the UK is what I'd expect do see.

Apparently it also says he associates with dodgy Russians. Dodgy? Is that really a term? Names, what they do, who they're connected to.

It's absolutely the guy's job to highlight the issues with the administration - but I would expect him to do it in a professional manner.

Agreed that he was very successful in being elected POTUS. However he did it substantially on a mountain of lies (see the FactCheck website for details) which in turn, suggests that a significant proportion of the US electorate are gullible.

In terms of his ineptness - his blundering through the Mueller investigation, his dealings with Russia, his cancellation of the JCPOA agreement, his tariff wars with Mexico, China, Canada, and the EU, his budget shutdown last year, his appointments of and sacking of numerous senior White House politicians, the massive increase in the US debt, his failure to stop Obamacare, the way he's dealt with Immigration, the number of diplomatic posts which are currently vacant, his appointment of family members to senior posts, his taking the side of Putin against his own security services, the way in which his phone call to the Mexican President was leaked, the way numerous US and foreign politicians treat him as a moody child.....when the Chief of Staff, the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of Defense refer to you using words such as idiot, moron, and childlike, and when your own lawyer tells the other side that he won't let you testify because you'll incriminate yourself i think it would be fair to say you were a long, long way from any semblance of "ept"

[sugerbear]

techiedave said:

I'm being very delicate here.
But hypothetically
I think a lot of stuff may come out shortly about the noble diplomat.
I think some will be glad to see the back of him
And it was known last night he was going

Just saying

I am all for protecting whistleblowers so what have you heard and where did you hear it. Was he friends with Epstein by any chance?

[MDMetal]

Countdown said:

rxe said:

Well, that's where the subtlety comes in. Trump is in some cases inept, and in other cases not inept. He's clearly less inept than many people on here because he managed to get elected as President of the USA - I've never tried to be elected to this position, but I understand it is quite hard. So in terms of getting elected - definitely not inept. Is his engagement with North Korea inept - I have no idea - history will probably judge.

To say he's inept is just noise. What has he done that is inept, with specifics and how it might impact the UK is what I'd expect do see.

Apparently it also says he associates with dodgy Russians. Dodgy? Is that really a term? Names, what they do, who they're connected to.

It's absolutely the guy's job to highlight the issues with the administration - but I would expect him to do it in a professional manner.

Agreed that he was very successful in being elected POTUS. However he did it substantially on a mountain of lies (see the FactCheck website for details) which in turn, suggests that a significant proportion of the US electorate are gullible.

In terms of his ineptness - his blundering through the Mueller investigation, his dealings with Russia, his cancellation of the JCPOA agreement, his tariff wars with Mexico, China, Canada, and the EU, his budget shutdown last year, his appointments of and sacking of numerous senior White House politicians, the massive increase in the US debt, his failure to stop Obamacare, the way he's dealt with Immigration, the number of diplomatic posts which are currently vacant, his appointment of family members to senior posts, his taking the side of Putin against his own security services, the way in which his phone call to the Mexican President was leaked, the way numerous US and foreign politicians treat him as a moody child.....when the Chief of Staff, the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of Defense refer to you using words such as idiot, moron, and childlike, and when your own lawyer tells the other side that he won't let you testify because you'll incriminate yourself i think it would be fair to say you were a long, long way from any semblance of "ept"

It's different yes but the longer he's there the harder it is is for me to workout if it's wrong. He's clearly against bombing every country he dislikes (although the ranty tweets say otherwise the facts back-up he's not actually following through) If he wants to run things differently and occasionally cause chaos if that leads to a good outcome in most cases then is it really bad? (I do agree the fact the head of state frequently seems to lie in public and act like a moody child is not the greatest endorsement but on the other hand calling a spade a spade and trying to get the outcome you want is to be applauded no?)

[anonymous-user]

MDMetal said:

Countdown said:

rxe said:

Well, that's where the subtlety comes in. Trump is in some cases inept, and in other cases not inept. He's clearly less inept than many people on here because he managed to get elected as President of the USA - I've never tried to be elected to this position, but I understand it is quite hard. So in terms of getting elected - definitely not inept. Is his engagement with North Korea inept - I have no idea - history will probably judge.

To say he's inept is just noise. What has he done that is inept, with specifics and how it might impact the UK is what I'd expect do see.

Apparently it also says he associates with dodgy Russians. Dodgy? Is that really a term? Names, what they do, who they're connected to.

It's absolutely the guy's job to highlight the issues with the administration - but I would expect him to do it in a professional manner.

Agreed that he was very successful in being elected POTUS. However he did it substantially on a mountain of lies (see the FactCheck website for details) which in turn, suggests that a significant proportion of the US electorate are gullible.

In terms of his ineptness - his blundering through the Mueller investigation, his dealings with Russia, his cancellation of the JCPOA agreement, his tariff wars with Mexico, China, Canada, and the EU, his budget shutdown last year, his appointments of and sacking of numerous senior White House politicians, the massive increase in the US debt, his failure to stop Obamacare, the way he's dealt with Immigration, the number of diplomatic posts which are currently vacant, his appointment of family members to senior posts, his taking the side of Putin against his own security services, the way in which his phone call to the Mexican President was leaked, the way numerous US and foreign politicians treat him as a moody child.....when the Chief of Staff, the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of Defense refer to you using words such as idiot, moron, and childlike, and when your own lawyer tells the other side that he won't let you testify because you'll incriminate yourself i think it would be fair to say you were a long, long way from any semblance of "ept"

It's different yes but the longer he's there the harder it is is for me to workout if it's wrong. He's clearly against bombing every country he dislikes (although the ranty tweets say otherwise the facts back-up he's not actually following through) If he wants to run things differently and occasionally cause chaos if that leads to a good outcome in most cases then is it really bad? (I do agree the fact the head of state frequently seems to lie in public and act like a moody child is not the greatest endorsement but on the other hand calling a spade a spade and trying to get the outcome you want is to be applauded no?)

Surely that depends on the specifics and ramifications of the outcome ?

[Ridgemont]

Blue62 said:

Vanden Saab said:

Assuming that the leak came from the civil service, I cannot see where else it could have come from as I doubt this memo would be freely available to politicians, I am really impressed that boris has such a good relationship with some of them that they seem to be willing to put their jobs on the line for him...

Again, you're making an assumption and drawing conclusions from there. There is a good chance that the email account has been hacked, which opens up possibilities beyond our own civil service. I think the details (or some thereof) of Hilary's emails were hacked by an outside agency leading up to the election and it proved to be pivotal in the polls at the time.

I’m not sure where you are getting this from.
Isabel Oakeshott released the details. She has not clarified the source but it way more likely she was handed this directly than encryption being broken.

Sources close to Oakeshott seem to be indicating that the source was someone who wanted to payback for Brexit foot dragging.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/07/di...

[Blue62]

Vanden Saab said:

The assumption was made with regard to our learned diplomats suggestion that Boris and his mates were responsible.... Are you suggesting that he was wrong?

No, simply stating that it may not be an internal leak, though I'd be surprised if it weren't. Adding grist to the mill, it is my understanding that such a leak from within the FO is unprecedented.

[Blue62]

Ridgemont said:

I’m not sure where you are getting this from.
Isabel Oakeshott released the details. She has not clarified the source but it way more likely she was handed this directly than encryption being broken.

Sources close to Oakeshott seem to be indicating that the source was someone who wanted to payback for Brexit foot dragging.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/07/di...

There was an article in The Times yesterday which suggested it could be a data breach by a 'foreign agent.' Such breaches are not without precedent, but a leak from within the FO is apparently. Whatever the source, it is a very worrying situation when senior diplomats have their private mail compromised and become political pawns.

[tangerine_sedge]

Ridgemont said:

I’m not sure where you are getting this from.
Isabel Oakeshott released the details. She has not clarified the source but it way more likely she was handed this directly than encryption being broken.

Sources close to Oakeshott seem to be indicating that the source was someone who wanted to payback for Brexit foot dragging.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/07/di...

Oakeshott should be forced to give up her source. This is a matter of national security.

I believe in the right of whistleblowers and journalists to keep their sources secret, but only for subjects which are in the public interest. This leak is to embarrass the government and damage relations and certainly not in the public interest.

[Blue62]

Lotobear said:

Everyone knows that Trump is inept but what was foolish was to go on written record expressing that view (when everyone already knows it) in an era when everything is able to 'get out'.

It was badly judged and has caused damage to the UK. Like Trump or not he's here and we need to manage the situation, bite our tongues, and wait for the next president to come along.

I know it's going over old ground, but the fact is this was private mail, diplomats have to get straight to the point and I am sure that what he wrote is typical of the exchanges that commonly take place, nobody would imagine that the details of those exchanges would ever get into the public domain.

I'm seriously struggling to understand the motive behind this leak though, Brexit revenge has been mentioned or an attempt to damage our relations with the US, but that doesn't add up either. I guess we'll have to wait and see.