The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
wiggy001 said:
I see parallels here.
I their quest to be seen as in touch with the needs of those that do not identify as male or female (a tiny number) TFL change their greetings which naturally gets big press coverage. And what effect does this really have. It doesn't really help those that identify as something other than male or female (who, as already stated on this thread, are generally pretty liberal in their views and probably didn't even notice an issue before hand). It doesn't help us to become more liberal as a society either because many will wonder why TFL are spending a nano-second on this minority issue when their service that we pay through the roof for is so terrible. And to some it simply breeds resentment that, like the Muslim community that are treated with kid gloves in this country, another minority group and being given "special" treatment.
By all means stamp out hate crime. By all means ensure laws are equal for all and that all have equal rights. But this kind of "positive" measure is counter-productive in my opinion.
Unless you can tell me that thousands of people will now be far happier in their lives knowing that the tube announcer is speaking to them where before he/she/they were only speaking to the males and females.
I don't disagree. I their quest to be seen as in touch with the needs of those that do not identify as male or female (a tiny number) TFL change their greetings which naturally gets big press coverage. And what effect does this really have. It doesn't really help those that identify as something other than male or female (who, as already stated on this thread, are generally pretty liberal in their views and probably didn't even notice an issue before hand). It doesn't help us to become more liberal as a society either because many will wonder why TFL are spending a nano-second on this minority issue when their service that we pay through the roof for is so terrible. And to some it simply breeds resentment that, like the Muslim community that are treated with kid gloves in this country, another minority group and being given "special" treatment.
By all means stamp out hate crime. By all means ensure laws are equal for all and that all have equal rights. But this kind of "positive" measure is counter-productive in my opinion.
Unless you can tell me that thousands of people will now be far happier in their lives knowing that the tube announcer is speaking to them where before he/she/they were only speaking to the males and females.
However, as previously mentioned in the thread, I think TfL just want to be seen as more "modern" and the TG thing is just a convenient headline-grabber for it. I very much doubt that they actually care.
I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference for genderfluid people as we have far more s
t to deal with in our lives than whether or not an announcement says "Ladies and Gentlemen", "Gentlefolk", "Customers", or "Cattle scum". Frankly the way public transport is, the latter would be the most honest and inclusive for everyone. 
ClockworkCupcake said:
However, as previously mentioned in the thread, I think TfL just want to be seen as more "modern" and the TG thing is just a convenient headline-grabber for it. I very much doubt that they actually care.
I agree. I think the UK is held back by the "things were better in the old days" stuff. Always frightened of changing things in case old folk get upset. wiggy001 said:
p2c said:
wiggy001 said:
Zod said:
teve, what changes are you having to make to your life to accommodate the needs of gender non-binary people?
Society as a whole is making huge changes to accommodate a tiny minority of people. When we have children as young as 5 being referred to "Gender Identity" clinics and people too young to vote being able to change their gender, I don't think I'm alone at thinking maybe we are being too liberal without thinking of the potential consequences.Back in the 90's Mr Blair and co decided on our behalf that Britain was too white, too middle class, too British. They set about on a programme to make Britain "multicultural". In many people's opinion this has been an unmitigated disaster for Britain but no-one can question it for fear of being labelled "racist" which detracts from the poor souls that do suffer real abhorrent racism every day.
I see parallels here.
I their quest to be seen as in touch with the needs of those that do not identify as male or female (a tiny number) TFL change their greetings which naturally gets big press coverage. And what effect does this really have. It doesn't really help those that identify as something other than male or female (who, as already stated on this thread, are generally pretty liberal in their views and probably didn't even notice an issue before hand). It doesn't help us to become more liberal as a society either because many will wonder why TFL are spending a nano-second on this minority issue when their service that we pay through the roof for is so terrible. And to some it simply breeds resentment that, like the Muslim community that are treated with kid gloves in this country, another minority group and being given "special" treatment.
By all means stamp out hate crime. By all means ensure laws are equal for all and that all have equal rights. But this kind of "positive" measure is counter-productive in my opinion.
Unless you can tell me that thousands of people will now be far happier in their lives knowing that the tube announcer is speaking to them where before he/she/they were only speaking to the males and females.
p2c said:
Like ClockworkCupcake there is a lot to agree with, but it just seems at odds that I'm told its insignificant but the level of outrage is so high its made the papers, and several pages on PH. But Yeah there are far bigger issues that need to be resolved than underground announcements, but when saying "welcome everybody" is somehow special treatment to trans peeps it just shows how resistant people are. Special treatment would be is a segment of society was specifically addressed and welcomed onto the tube when others are left out, you know something like "Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen" and maybe its time society's phycology is changed in order to take into account the psychological effects of continual exclusion of minorities.
Personally I have no problem with "Ladies and Gentlemen" as "lady and gentleman" covers me anyway. 
It's "Ladies or Gentlemen" that I would have a problem with.
p2c said:
Like ClockworkCupcake there is a lot to agree with, but it just seems at odds that I'm told its insignificant but the level of outrage is so high its made the papers, and several pages on PH. But Yeah there are far bigger issues that need to be resolved than underground announcements, but when saying "welcome everybody" is somehow special treatment to trans peeps it just shows how resistant people are. Special treatment would be is a segment of society was specifically addressed and welcomed onto the tube when others are left out, you know something like "Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen" and maybe its time society's phycology is changed in order to take into account the psychological effects of continual exclusion of minorities.
99+% is not a segment of society. It's not all about you.
Justayellowbadge said:
p2c said:
Like ClockworkCupcake there is a lot to agree with, but it just seems at odds that I'm told its insignificant but the level of outrage is so high its made the papers, and several pages on PH. But Yeah there are far bigger issues that need to be resolved than underground announcements, but when saying "welcome everybody" is somehow special treatment to trans peeps it just shows how resistant people are. Special treatment would be is a segment of society was specifically addressed and welcomed onto the tube when others are left out, you know something like "Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen" and maybe its time society's phycology is changed in order to take into account the psychological effects of continual exclusion of minorities.
99+% is not a segment of society. Justayellowbadge said:
It's not all about you.
No, but its not all about you either.ClockworkCupcake said:
p2c said:
Like ClockworkCupcake there is a lot to agree with, but it just seems at odds that I'm told its insignificant but the level of outrage is so high its made the papers, and several pages on PH. But Yeah there are far bigger issues that need to be resolved than underground announcements, but when saying "welcome everybody" is somehow special treatment to trans peeps it just shows how resistant people are. Special treatment would be is a segment of society was specifically addressed and welcomed onto the tube when others are left out, you know something like "Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen" and maybe its time society's phycology is changed in order to take into account the psychological effects of continual exclusion of minorities.
Personally I have no problem with "Ladies and Gentlemen" as "lady and gentleman" covers me anyway. It's "Ladies or Gentlemen" that I would have a problem with.
But yeah I can agree with that, I'll present as one of the two binaries and feel uncomfortable if I find myself in the middle, but that's my internalised trans misogyny kicking in.
Edited by p2c on Sunday 16th July 17:36
p2c said:
So is that binary gender fluid then?
But yeah I can agree with that, I'll present as one of the two binaries and feel uncomfortable if I find myself in the middle, but that's my internalised trans misogyny kicking in.
I just take the pragmatic view that as a society, we're still deeply rooted in a gender binary, so saying "both" is akin to saying "bisexual" when it comes to sexuality. But yeah I can agree with that, I'll present as one of the two binaries and feel uncomfortable if I find myself in the middle, but that's my internalised trans misogyny kicking in.
But, yes, it is generally less hassle to present as one or t'other. After all, even Eddie Izzard got beaten up for daring to go out as a "bloke in a dress" and not sticking to one or the other.
I made a flippant reference earlier to the announcement that the new Doctor Who is going to be female.
However, thinking on it some more, this could raise some really interesting gender pronoun questions and bring them into mainstream discussion. How will people refer to the Doctor's previous incarnations? And will it inadvertently, even by implication, address some of the issues that a transperson faces being mis-gendered when people refer to their old gender?
Of course, it does nothing to change the perception of gender binary as The Doctor has merely transitioned from one gender binary to the other, but it could rather ironically be a positive step as the issue becomes part of pop culture.
It will be interesting to see how things go. Will they will just whitewash it by having everything refer to the Doctor as "she", with nobody ever getting it wrong, even if they are a recurring character who doesn't know about the transition, or will they will play on it by making her suffer the same discomfort that many transpeople face of people using the wrong pronoun for them.
However, thinking on it some more, this could raise some really interesting gender pronoun questions and bring them into mainstream discussion. How will people refer to the Doctor's previous incarnations? And will it inadvertently, even by implication, address some of the issues that a transperson faces being mis-gendered when people refer to their old gender?
Of course, it does nothing to change the perception of gender binary as The Doctor has merely transitioned from one gender binary to the other, but it could rather ironically be a positive step as the issue becomes part of pop culture.
It will be interesting to see how things go. Will they will just whitewash it by having everything refer to the Doctor as "she", with nobody ever getting it wrong, even if they are a recurring character who doesn't know about the transition, or will they will play on it by making her suffer the same discomfort that many transpeople face of people using the wrong pronoun for them.
Edited by ClockworkCupcake on Sunday 16th July 18:26
stevesingo said:
Halb said:
wiggy001 said:
Back in the 90's Mr Blair and co decided on our behalf that Britain was too white, too middle class, too British.
I think it was more about the country being too Tory.ked!There's no saving it.
p2c said:
Like ClockworkCupcake there is a lot to agree with, but it just seems at odds that I'm told its insignificant but the level of outrage is so high its made the papers, and several pages on PH.
Maybe it's the fact that it has made the papers is a big part of the issue I have with it. They could quite easily have updated the announcements without anyone giving it a second thought if their real aim was to actually be inclusive. No-one would have realised but their supposed aim would have been met. Instead somebody deliberately took it to the press to make an issue out of it. They obviously feel this gives them some moral superiority as they are not only making these small changes to become more inclusive, but they are making sure everyone knows about it. Which annoys people like me for the reasons I've already stated.It's like people that give to charity or a homeless person then tell everyone about it. If your aim was to help the charity/person then well done you. But if your aim was to tell everyone how great you are, get a pat on the back and feel all warm and cosy inside for doing so then please just do one.
The British people in general couldn't be more liberal and accommodating in my opinion. We are very much of the opinion of "live and let live". Until we feel that a lifestyle or ideal is being pushed upon us. Then we, rightly or wrongly, instinctively resist the change, almost for the sake of resisting. Again, the parallels with multiculturalism are obvious.
Mothersruin said:
stevesingo said:
Halb said:
wiggy001 said:
Back in the 90's Mr Blair and co decided on our behalf that Britain was too white, too middle class, too British.
I think it was more about the country being too Tory.ked!There's no saving it.
wiggy001 said:
p2c said:
Like ClockworkCupcake there is a lot to agree with, but it just seems at odds that I'm told its insignificant but the level of outrage is so high its made the papers, and several pages on PH.
Maybe it's the fact that it has made the papers is a big part of the issue I have with it. They could quite easily have updated the announcements without anyone giving it a second thought if their real aim was to actually be inclusive. No-one would have realised but their supposed aim would have been met. Instead somebody deliberately took it to the press to make an issue out of it. They obviously feel this gives them some moral superiority as they are not only making these small changes to become more inclusive, but they are making sure everyone knows about it. Which annoys people like me for the reasons I've already stated.It's like people that give to charity or a homeless person then tell everyone about it. If your aim was to help the charity/person then well done you. But if your aim was to tell everyone how great you are, get a pat on the back and feel all warm and cosy inside for doing so then please just do one.
The British people in general couldn't be more liberal and accommodating in my opinion. We are very much of the opinion of "live and let live". Until we feel that a lifestyle or ideal is being pushed upon us. Then we, rightly or wrongly, instinctively resist the change, almost for the sake of resisting. Again, the parallels with multiculturalism are obvious.
Don't get me wrong, There is nowhere I would rather be as a trans person as its just about tolerable and we are not going backwards like the USA who last week introduced a bill into congress to strip nearly all trans discrimination protections,
So something like TfL making these changes, I think it should be announced, quietly and to industry so that other companies follow suit from their example, But I would rather it didn't end up like this has, but that's only going to happen when it becomes familiar and no one cares, no one wants to argue against it on PH, its just, so what, why haven't they done it already etc.
On a similar line I must admit I do find myself sometimes wondering if my contributions here only make matters worse. these threads would probably die out in a day or so if Clockworkcupcake, myself and a few others stayed clear, But then I look at the tone of this incarnation and wonder if all those past bun fights are having an effect as this one has been far less adversarial, But silence isn't going to make a difference, If PH becomes an anti trans echo chamber, Likewise whilst this announcement has not been exactly positive in some areas, hopefully next time there will just be a shrug of the shoulders and front page news it wont be.
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