Three killed after being hit by a train in London.
Discussion
Resolutionary said:
You said of tattoos, beards etc: "..thinking people will look up to you because you're an individual." That's an emotive statement.
It's emotive to you, not to me. It's a a search for identity that all teens go through... . And assure you I have no "strong feelings" about it one way or another. 
Resolutionary said:
You may unknowingly have attended a party or two where graffiti writers were present. That must keep some here awake at night.
Unlikely, but possible some time in my dim and distant past. Why would that keep others awake?fido said:
Resolutionary said:
Apologies but I didn't say this trio had specifically done anything of artistic merit - just that there are a great many taggers who also produce murals that we'd (almost) all appreciate. These lads are from what I glean just run of the mill scrawlers.
Let's face it if they had produced any artistic output of merit above and beyond their coursework assignments at the Ring Road Polytechnic of Art then they wouldn't be scrabbling about on a railway line in the early hours. This is about peer pressure and fitting in with the other kid-ults. So sad really.fido said:
Let's face it if they had produced any artistic output of merit above and beyond their coursework assignments at the Ring Road Polytechnic of Art then they wouldn't be scrabbling about on a railway line in the early hours. This is about peer pressure and fitting in with the other kid-ults. So sad really.
That's a fallacy. There are many people with successful careers in the creative industries who either dabbled in it, socially went out on the spray, or were a one-man graffiti crimewave. Again we find that binary debate creeping back.popeyewhite said:
Resolutionary said:
You said of tattoos, beards etc: "..thinking people will look up to you because you're an individual." That's an emotive statement.
It's emotive to you, not to me. It's a a search for identity that all teens go through... . And assure you I have no "strong feelings" about it one way or another. Resolutionary said:
You may unknowingly have attended a party or two where graffiti writers were present. That must keep some here awake at night.
Unlikely, but possible some time in my dim and distant past. Why would that keep others awake?It'd probably keep others in this thread awake if they found out they'd spoken to / befriended / socialised with a graffito. Small world and all that!
Roman Rhodes said:
Not sure what it is about NPE that makes posters so sure of the motivation of strangers of whom they have no, or very little, knowledge. It is quite a phenomenon - so many people with preconceived ideas and closed minds.
Well, we know their age and gender, we know their predilection for trespass and vandalism, and we know their desire for recognition drove them to risk their lives just so their names would be seen. We know as a society something of the cost and misery graffiti can cause and we know from previous examples of the genre why these people do this. So really it it's not "quite a phenomenon" - it's a relatively common occurrence that has been discussed many times, written about, published and prosecutions resulted.Resolutionary said:
Also you never answered my question, and it is pertinent:
Let's say the trio that died had a past of creating what would widely be credited as humorous / witty / artistically talented pieces. Would they be more worthy of mourn?
I'm looking for a yes or no.
"worthy of a mourn" form most people - no. Not if they had died in this same manner. The fact remains that it was clear they were on the tracks with the intent to vandalise or cause criminal damage to some part of the railway infrastructure or something immediately adjacent to it. Let's say the trio that died had a past of creating what would widely be credited as humorous / witty / artistically talented pieces. Would they be more worthy of mourn?
I'm looking for a yes or no.
Had they been a talented and known artist who used the spray paint as a medium - let's say it was actually Banksy, but they died because of complications following liver surgery, or were murdered, hit by a drink driver, or they just got old and died, then I think we could expect a display of sympathy from people, there'd be a PH thread that said "RIP Banksy" and there would be the discussion of how they had a polarising impact on people but the general consensus being that he makes "art" as it were.
But had actual Banksy been killed by a train in the middle of the night because he was trespassing on the railway, and he had his spray cans with him, I don't think there would be anywhere near the same level of sympathy and much like this, he would be criticised for having made a poor choice of where to do his work, and whilst it is unfair to say he "got what he deserved" it would be more the case of "he took the risk and faced the consequence of his actions" much like with these three
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Thank you. I appreciate where you're coming from (and kinda hoped you'd say no, as my rebuttal would have been made a bit easier!). The difficulty here is gauging the subtleties of graffiti on the whole. Out of 100 individuals:
- 40 might be between 14 - 20, and solely tag
- 30 might be between 18 - 25, and both tag and produce more impressive work (say 50% each way)
- 20 might be between 20 - 30, and prefer colourful, insightful productions, but still tag 20% of the time
- 8 might be in it for the colourful, insightful work with maybe a signature per piece as their tag
- 2 might produce much more provocative / informative / intelligent work
All of them might use legal spaces. All of them might be at college, or hold down jobs, or whatever. I remember hearing about one artist who got caught and was later identified as being one of the guys who cleans up graffiti!
This is all speculative but I hope it illustrates that, as I mentioned a few posts ago, there is a pretty intricate venn diagram to be made!
Resolutionary said:
All humans have to search for identity though.
Incorrect. Resolutionary said:
That's called life. It's why many on this forum own nice cars.
Also incorrect. People own nice things because they give them pleasure. Someone might experience a crisis of identity which might lead them to do something out of the ordinary to try and re-establish a sense of identity ie buy a hugely fast car, date a much younger member of the opposite sex, start martial arts later in life, take up a college course, change job...you get the picture.Shakermaker said:
"worthy of a mourn" form most people - no. Not if they had died in this same manner. The fact remains that it was clear they were on the tracks with the intent to vandalise or cause criminal damage to some part of the railway infrastructure or something immediately adjacent to it.
Had they been a talented and known artist who used the spray paint as a medium - let's say it was actually Banksy, but they died because of complications following liver surgery, or were murdered, hit by a drink driver, or they just got old and died, then I think we could expect a display of sympathy from people, there'd be a PH thread that said "RIP Banksy" and there would be the discussion of how they had a polarising impact on people but the general consensus being that he makes "art" as it were.
But had actual Banksy been killed by a train in the middle of the night because he was trespassing on the railway, and he had his spray cans with him, I don't think there would be anywhere near the same level of sympathy and much like this, he would be criticised for having made a poor choice of where to do his work, and whilst it is unfair to say he "got what he deserved" it would be more the case of "he took the risk and faced the consequence of his actions" much like with these three
The trouble with elevating Banksy constantly is that again, there are nuances which often get overlooked. Had they been a talented and known artist who used the spray paint as a medium - let's say it was actually Banksy, but they died because of complications following liver surgery, or were murdered, hit by a drink driver, or they just got old and died, then I think we could expect a display of sympathy from people, there'd be a PH thread that said "RIP Banksy" and there would be the discussion of how they had a polarising impact on people but the general consensus being that he makes "art" as it were.
But had actual Banksy been killed by a train in the middle of the night because he was trespassing on the railway, and he had his spray cans with him, I don't think there would be anywhere near the same level of sympathy and much like this, he would be criticised for having made a poor choice of where to do his work, and whilst it is unfair to say he "got what he deserved" it would be more the case of "he took the risk and faced the consequence of his actions" much like with these three
Banksy is traditionally a stencil artist. Cutting up pieces of board, going out at night, spraying the word 'BANKSY' as well as the odd rat with a message placard is how it started. It's in the same sphere as tagging (whether you like it or not), but is a very different route to take - and evolved into something globally recognised and emulated. Irrespective of the subject matter, it is easy to find areas where Banksy has used private property to provide a social commentary via the medium of spray paint. This should, by and large, equal vandalism. But often doesn't.
Banksy started somewhere, and that somewhere might surprise you. I used to have a whole series of photos from an early 2000's London where a tag or piece Banksy would often be found on a railway hoarding in Waterloo, on a footpath in Embankment, or some other prominent spot in the capital. The brilliance of stencil art is it is extremely quick to do - which in part has helped the illusive nature of the artist in question.
It's still vandalism.
popeyewhite said:
Resolutionary said:
All humans have to search for identity though.
Incorrect. Resolutionary said:
That's called life. It's why many on this forum own nice cars.
Also incorrect. People own nice things because they give them pleasure. Someone might experience a crisis of identity which might lead them to do something out of the ordinary to try and re-establish a sense of identity ie buy a hugely fast car, date a much younger member of the opposite sex, start martial arts later in life, take up a college course, change job...you get the picture.Also incorrect. Some people do graffiti because it gives them pleasure. Social standing / peer cheer is a byproduct.
Resolutionary said:
Incorrect. 'Identity' is a broad term.
You said "all humans have to search for identity". This is completely untrue. Broadening your argument further will not make your original statement any more correct.Resolutionary said:
Also incorrect. Some people do graffiti because it gives them pleasure. Social standing / peer cheer is a byproduct.
You haven't thought about this. Graffiti is public. Take a moment to ponder how this affects the reasoning behind the act.popeyewhite said:
Resolutionary said:
Incorrect. 'Identity' is a broad term.
You said "all humans have to search for identity". This is completely untrue. Broadening your argument further will not make your original statement any more correct.popeyewhite said:
It's a a search for identity that all teens go through
So are you saying all humans go through an identity search, or nah?popeyewhite said:
Resolutionary said:
Also incorrect. Some people do graffiti because it gives them pleasure. Social standing / peer cheer is a byproduct.
You haven't thought about this. Graffiti is public. Take a moment to ponder how this affects the reasoning behind the act.Edited by Resolutionary on Monday 25th June 15:07
Moonhawk said:
Resolutionary said:
People drive flashy cars in public. Take a moment to ponder how this affects the reasoning behind buying one.
I drive a car in public - if you consider it "flashy" then that is on you.Resolutionary said:
So are you saying all humans go through an identity search, or nah?
Just teens. 
Resolutionary said:
People drive flashy cars in public. Take a moment to ponder how this affects the reasoning behind buying one.
Bit random, but ok. In this context there's no parallel between driving something somebody else has designed and created, and scribbling your own design of graffiti on a public wall. You see one is directly promoting your own identity, the other is, well, showing off, and though might be an example of an identity crisis, more often than not isn't.HTH
popeyewhite said:
Roman Rhodes said:
Not sure what it is about NPE that makes posters so sure of the motivation of strangers of whom they have no, or very little, knowledge. It is quite a phenomenon - so many people with preconceived ideas and closed minds.
Well, we know their age and gender, we know their predilection for trespass and vandalism, and we know their desire for recognition drove them to risk their lives just so their names would be seen. We know as a society something of the cost and misery graffiti can cause and we know from previous examples of the genre why these people do this. So really it it's not "quite a phenomenon" - it's a relatively common occurrence that has been discussed many times, written about, published and prosecutions resulted.Evidence that this was “about peer pressure and fitting in with the other kid-ults”?
popeyewhite said:
Resolutionary said:
So are you saying all humans go through an identity search, or nah?
Just teens. Resolutionary said:
People drive flashy cars in public. Take a moment to ponder how this affects the reasoning behind buying one.
Bit random, but ok. In this context there's no parallel between driving something somebody else has designed and created, and scribbling your own design of graffiti on a public wall. You see one is directly promoting your own identity, the other is, well, showing off, and though might be an example of an identity crisis, more often than not isn't.HTH
It's funny how semantics suddenly matter when we dissect the opposition's points, but not physical, tangible societal observations. We could debate investment in design and application of design / art / scrawl but I don't think it'd be worth it.
popeyewhite said:
Resolutionary said:
People graffiti in public - if you consider it scummy then that is on you.
Well, it's on society as a whole, actually. To be fair, let's just say 99.99% of society. 
Moonhawk said:
Damaging other people's property is scummy, regardless of my personal thoughts on it.
True. But it still happens, so I assume many a tagger doesn't care for personal thoughts, public perception or people's property - we have been through this one already.Round and round we go.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff