How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 4)

[FiF]

don'tbesilly said:

jjlynn27 said:

Digga said:

Didn't see where this little gem form the weekend was being discussed on here: https://www.politico.eu/article/matteo-salvini-eu-...

Matteo Salvini said:

The EU is not conducting Brexit talks with the U.K. in “good faith,”

Stop the press. Rabid Europhobe says the EU is not conducting talks in 'good faith'? That is quite shocking. It would be almost as shocking if Farage made the same claim.

Bit of trivia about Salvini that I find funny; failed to graduate after spending 16 (yes, that is sixteen) years at university.

Fascinating fact about Salvini, thanks. (like it matters )

Let's not forget the gratuitous and almost obligatory ad hom in passing.


In other news thread title should be changed, at least based on the last couple of days posts ; "How to attempt to plait fog, and fail miserably."

[gooner1]

RAFsmoggy said:

It seems your argument is falling short you resort to childish remarks that have nothing to do with the subject?, What a narcistic little pratt you are...

Makes you wonder where vonuber, PM etc are when they think they're needed?

[Not-The-Messiah]

djc206 said:

psi310398 said:

Ghibli said:

Great, the 48% would get a vote on two options of which they want neither.

How about a vote to stay in the EU or to stay in the EU, does that sound fair?

That boat has sailed. Democratic decision and all that.

Why has it sailed? Why can’t people change their minds once all the facts and options are laid bare? What is to fear from allowing them to do so? If Brexit is still the will of the people then the result would show that no? We have had two general elections in quick succession recently, I really don’t see why the referendum is so sacred.

That said I don’t actually support a second referendum, it would only take one dangerous demagogue to convince them to vote for a no deal exit out of spite and that would hurt us all, badly. It’s not a risk worth taking in my opinion.

Regarding ships sailing: One of democracies most shameful moments involved sailing a ship from Athens to Mytilene to murder and enslave the entire population. Some claimed the ship had sailed and that nothing could be done, after a rethink and realising they’d fallen victim to demagogy a second trireme was sent after the first, double crewed so that it would catch the first to prevent the slaughter. 2500 years ago people were smart enough to realise that the ship hasn’t sailed if you can still catch it.

You and some others on here seem to have no concept of the potential ramifications of the referendum being overturned.

There seems to be a train of thought that British people will, well people like you see it people will come to their senses and change their minds. Even if that does mean International humiliation. But after this things will just go back to normal.

It won't, It will destroy the Tory party opening the door to a more right wing party like UKip which will I suspect see massive increase in support. Although probably not enough to win any power. But enough for Corbyn to get into power which I think will end up doing far more economic harm than any hard brexit would.

[jjlynn27]

psi310398 said:

Not being rude, but I suspect he has achieved more with his life than you.

That's not rude at all. Depends on what you want to put under 'achieved more with his life'. Under academic achievements, that is demonstrably wrong. It doesn't matter much, it was just funny for me to read that someone can spend that long at uni without graduating. After all lack of education didn't hurt Farage much either, did it?

psi310398 said:

We are not stupid. We know he's a Eurosceptic.

Phew, good.

psi310398 said:

He also happens to be Deputy Prime Minister of Italy and Minister of the Interior. Italy is the third most important economy in the EU, if you leave us out of it. He heads the party that scored the highest number of votes in the Italian General Election. So what he says counts for something in the councils of Europe, even if you despise him.

He is offering support to the UK. I, for one, am grateful.

Support? What kind of support is he going to be able to offer? As for despising him, that's a bit of a leap there. I nothing him. As for Italian General Election, didn't Liga Nord came third? After 5* and PD?

[Helicopter123]

On the idea of a second vote, you could have three options.

1. Remain
2. Accept the negotiated Deal
3. Leave with 'no deal'.

First and Second Preference votes.

There would be no room for any 'politician' to misread the instruction.

From what I can gather, no one is happy with the current deal, but it would be better than the 'no deal' scenario which is the one we are (almost) all trying to avoid other than the rabid foamers.

[vonuber]

gooner1 said:

Makes you wonder where vonuber, PM etc are when they think they're needed?

What are you on about? Needed for what?

[psi310398]

jjlynn27 said:

Support? What kind of support is he going to be able to offer? As for despising him, that's a bit of a leap there. I nothing him. As for Italian General Election, didn't Liga Nord came third? After 5* and PD?

Support. The EU27 are supposed to present a united front. If Italy peels off, as Austria and a couple of the Nordics are showing signs of doing, then cracks appear. JCJ has a coalition to maintain, too.

Re mandate. You're quite right. I should have said his coalition.

[psi310398]

Helicopter123 said:

On the idea of a second vote, you could have three options.

1. Remain
2. Accept the negotiated Deal
3. Leave with 'no deal'.

First and Second Preference votes.

There would be no room for any 'politician' to misread the instruction.

From what I can gather, no one is happy with the current deal, but it would be better than the 'no deal' scenario which is the one we are (almost) all trying to avoid other than the rabid foamers.

And round and round we go.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the counter-arguments above. No point wasting pixels repeating them all.

[JagLover]

Helicopter123 said:

From what I can gather, no one is happy with the current deal, but it would be better than the 'no deal' scenario which is the one we are (almost) all trying to avoid other than the rabid foamers.

The current "deal" is only a proposal and seems to be ever changing as May capitulates in stages

The latest capitulation.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-surrende...

[gooner1]

vonuber said:

What are you on about? Needed for what?

Not needed,think they're needed, and if you can't work that out then at least one of your
posts was indeed pure hyperbole.

That''s not an attack btw, purely a personal observation.

[RAFsmoggy]

Not-The-Messiah said:

It won't, It will destroy the Tory party .

ha ha ha they've done a good job themselves already...no doubt Boris has been getting tips from Ozzy Lol they are finished !

[PurpleMoonlight]

JagLover said:

The current "deal" is only a proposal and seems to be ever changing as May capitulates in stages

The latest capitulation.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-surrende...

What's she doing?

I can read that with an ad blocker operating.

[andymadmak]

Helicopter123 said:

On the idea of a second vote, you could have three options.

1. Remain
2. Accept the negotiated Deal
3. Leave with 'no deal'.

First and Second Preference votes.

There would be no room for any 'politician' to misread the instruction.

From what I can gather, no one is happy with the current deal, but it would be better than the 'no deal' scenario which is the one we are (almost) all trying to avoid other than the rabid foamers.

Really?

1. Remain - under what terms?
2. Accept the negotiated deal - who's version of the explanation of what the deal means should we base our judgement on?
3. Leave with "no deal" - Is that WTO + no transition period + save a big chunk of the £39 billion? WTO + transition period + £39 billion to the EU?

You'll have to define things much much more clearly if you expect a second referendum to settle the arguments! (Which is just one reason why there won't be a second referendum)

[gooner1]

PurpleMoonlight said:

What's she doing?

I can read that with an ad blocker operating.

She's agreed to another Referendum.

[jjlynn27]

psi310398 said:

jjlynn27 said:

Support? What kind of support is he going to be able to offer? As for despising him, that's a bit of a leap there. I nothing him. As for Italian General Election, didn't Liga Nord came third? After 5* and PD?

Support. The EU27 are supposed to present a united front. If Italy peels off, as Austria and a couple of the Nordics are showing signs of doing, then cracks appear. JCJ has a coalition to maintain, too.

They are? It seems to me that they are presenting much more united front than our current shower is managing.
As for Austria, is that the same Austria where;

Kurz said:

The Brexit decision is a decision we see very negatively.

Then again, if your main source of information is brexitcentral.com, I can see how can you believe things that you type. I don't see his comment as 'Italy peeling off' at all.

psi310398 said:

Re mandate. You're quite right. I should have said his coalition.

Or if you want to be correct you could have said 'coalition that his party is a member of'.

[anonymous-user]

Helicopter123 said:

On the idea of a second vote, you could have three options.

1. Remain
2. Accept the negotiated Deal
3. Leave with 'no deal'.

First and Second Preference votes.

There would be no room for any 'politician' to misread the instruction.

From what I can gather, no one is happy with the current deal, but it would be better than the 'no deal' scenario which is the one we are (almost) all trying to avoid other than the rabid foamers.

You may as well cut the option of "accept the negotiated deal" out. It won't be what leave voters voted for.

You wouldn't want to get their hopes up!

[Mrr T]

JagLover said:

Does your council also operate the tills for those traders?.

Some appear desperate to justify tax fraud and is just one dividing line among many in the EU referendum.

The number of spaces in local market is limited and there are long waiting lists for spots. The council could insist trader give them sight of financial statements and if turnover is sufficient the VAT registration. They do not do that.

I am not trying to justify tax fraud I am just pointing out the problems with solving it with internet sales. Both Amazon and eBay have now signed a voluntary agreement with HMRC to hand over data on potential VAT fraud. I am not sure the agreement will be legal on a no deal brexit.

VATfraud.org a lefty organisation trying to ensure we all pay more tax want Amazon and eBay to add VAT to all transactions. They are light on how this would work. My wife is a regular seller on eBay of our second hand items. Will they add VAT to that? How about the £85k registration threshold? Even if they only imposed the charge if sales exceeded £85k I know most professional sellers use both so that £170k before any recovery. I assume it would be possible to set up multiple accounts in both in the name of wife's, children, parents, you start to see the problem?
Finally it seems over half of the estimated under payment is by non UK sells. So nothing HMRC can do.

[wiggy001]

Helicopter123 said:

On the idea of a second vote, you could have three options.

1. Remain
2. Accept the negotiated Deal
3. Leave with 'no deal'.

First and Second Preference votes.

There would be no room for any 'politician' to misread the instruction.

From what I can gather, no one is happy with the current deal, but it would be better than the 'no deal' scenario which is the one we are (almost) all trying to avoid other than the rabid foamers.

Can you tell me what "Remain" means please? Is it:

1. Remain as we were a few years ago and never change
2. Remain but go along with the EU's "ever closer union" stuff
3. Remain and join the Euro and become "full members" of the EU without our previous, "special deals"
4. Remain, but under whatever terms the EU27 say because they veto us abandoning Article 50. This may or may not include the loss of our rebate.
5. Remain as members of EFTA
6. Etc etc etc

What, those options aren't all on your ballot paper? Why not?!

[Helicopter123]

wiggy001 said:

Helicopter123 said:

On the idea of a second vote, you could have three options.

1. Remain
2. Accept the negotiated Deal
3. Leave with 'no deal'.

First and Second Preference votes.

There would be no room for any 'politician' to misread the instruction.

From what I can gather, no one is happy with the current deal, but it would be better than the 'no deal' scenario which is the one we are (almost) all trying to avoid other than the rabid foamers.

Can you tell me what "Remain" means please? Is it:

1. Remain as we were a few years ago and never change
2. Remain but go along with the EU's "ever closer union" stuff
3. Remain and join the Euro and become "full members" of the EU without our previous, "special deals"
4. Remain, but under whatever terms the EU27 say because they veto us abandoning Article 50. This may or may not include the loss of our rebate.
5. Remain as members of EFTA
6. Etc etc etc

What, those options aren't all on your ballot paper? Why not?!

Those are all fair points.

As I see it, no chance of any deal making it through parliament at present. May hasn't got the numbers. So without a 2nd ref it's collapse of govt/GE/Corbyn and then God knows what.

[don'tbesilly]

JagLover said:

Helicopter123 said:

From what I can gather, no one is happy with the current deal, but it would be better than the 'no deal' scenario which is the one we are (almost) all trying to avoid other than the rabid foamers.

The current "deal" is only a proposal and seems to be ever changing as May capitulates in stages

The latest capitulation.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-surrende...

Yes just read that.

Extraordinary that May thinks that the above represents anything like what Leave voters actually voted for.

It's as though May read all her speeches, speeches made to world wide audiences, and since May took office, without knowing beforehand what the text of said speeches actually meant.

One wonders just how far May will go with her capitulations, the Maybots oft used phrase 'Brexit means Brexit' becomes 'Brexit means no Brexit'.

'No deal is better than a bad deal' becomes 'Any deal will do'
and
'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' becomes 'I'll agree to anything until it's all agreed'

May can't possibly last, can she?