Light aircraft disappears with two people on board...
Discussion
Byker28i said:
aeropilot said:
TTmonkey said:
McKay claims Cardiff abandoned their new signing and left him to make his own arrangements to travel, but Cardiff have said they offered a scheduled flight option. Sala had plenty of options, he could have got on any number of flights but I bet he thought he had hit the big time when McKay offered to arrange a private flight. He probably expected a jet with pretty dolly birds, but McKay stumped up for a death trap flown by a plumber on a bad night to fly.
Sala died because he got the cheap option not the regulated flight or the expected professional high class outfit.
McKay organised this, and did so on a budget. His crocodile tears last night on the news report makes me bloody angry. He sent an Uber instead of a limo.
Sala died because he got the cheap option not the regulated flight or the expected professional high class outfit.
McKay organised this, and did so on a budget. His crocodile tears last night on the news report makes me bloody angry. He sent an Uber instead of a limo.
McKay also doesn't clearly even understand the legalities of what cost-share means either from the BBC report....
BBC said:
However, in what could cast fresh doubt over the legality of the flight, Willie McKay said it was not a cost-sharing agreement as "Emi wasn't paying anything" and that he was going to pay "whatever Dave [Henderson] was going to charge".
Edited by aeropilot on Friday 1st March 08:21
McKay comes across as being as dodgy as hell, a massive amount of ar$e-covering going on there.
However, Sala was a grown adult, responsible for his own decisions. That he had a discussion in pidgin Spanish with a CCFC Player Liason Officer over WhatsApp (if you haven't seen them, the PLO offered some commercial flight times, Sala declined and said "Willis McKay" had sorted him a flight, it was left at that by the PLO) is key to it. He was in that unusual period of time that he'd signed for Cardiff but not actually started playing for them - legally he worked for them, but I dare say there is a certain amount of leeway amongst clubs that the player is not really subject to the club's rules (in practice, as opposed to what's in the contract) until his first physical day on the job. That will most likely change as a result of this incident.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/footb...
If some common sense had prevailed he would not have taken the flight. Easy for me to say from the comfort of my home study. In reality he was their young record signing, eager to impress, and missing his first day of training because he was back in France seeing his old team mates and sorting out accomodation for his dog would have looked seriously unprofessional.
Had this been in August, at the end of the summer transfer window, then in all likelihood we would have never heard of Emiliano Sala until he started banging them in for Cardiff in the Premier League. All involved would have most probably got away with taking a huge risk.
The fact that it was winter, snowing, flying at night over water, with icing conditions and a PPL doing a hooky commerical flight that was well beyond his capabilities is what led to this.
Everyone took their eye off the ball in regard to safety.
However, Sala was a grown adult, responsible for his own decisions. That he had a discussion in pidgin Spanish with a CCFC Player Liason Officer over WhatsApp (if you haven't seen them, the PLO offered some commercial flight times, Sala declined and said "Willis McKay" had sorted him a flight, it was left at that by the PLO) is key to it. He was in that unusual period of time that he'd signed for Cardiff but not actually started playing for them - legally he worked for them, but I dare say there is a certain amount of leeway amongst clubs that the player is not really subject to the club's rules (in practice, as opposed to what's in the contract) until his first physical day on the job. That will most likely change as a result of this incident.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/footb...
If some common sense had prevailed he would not have taken the flight. Easy for me to say from the comfort of my home study. In reality he was their young record signing, eager to impress, and missing his first day of training because he was back in France seeing his old team mates and sorting out accomodation for his dog would have looked seriously unprofessional.
Had this been in August, at the end of the summer transfer window, then in all likelihood we would have never heard of Emiliano Sala until he started banging them in for Cardiff in the Premier League. All involved would have most probably got away with taking a huge risk.
The fact that it was winter, snowing, flying at night over water, with icing conditions and a PPL doing a hooky commerical flight that was well beyond his capabilities is what led to this.
Everyone took their eye off the ball in regard to safety.
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Friday 1st March 11:30
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Friday 1st March 11:31
PurpleTurtle said:
McKay comes across as being as dodgy as hell, a massive amount of ar$e-covering going on there.
However, Sala was a grown adult, responsible for his own decisions. That he had a discussion in pidgin Spanish with a CCFC Player Liason Officer over WhatsApp (if you haven't seen them, the PLO offered some commercial flight times, Sala declined and said "Willis McKay" had sorted him a flight, it was left at that by the PLO) is key to it. He was in that unusual period of time that he'd signed for Cardiff but not actually started playing for them - legally he worked for them, but I dare say there is a certain amount of leeway amongst clubs that the player is not really subject to the club's rules (in practice, as opposed to what's in the contract) until his first physical day on the job. That will most likely change as a result of this incident.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/footb...
If some common sense had prevailed he would not have taken the flight. Easy for me to say from the comfort of my home study. In reality he was their young record signing, eager to impress, and missing his first day of training because he was back in France seeing his old team mates and sorting out accomodation for his dog would have looked seriously unprofessional.
Had this been in August, at the end of the summer transfer window, then in all likelihood we would have never heard of Emiliano Sala until he started banging them in for Cardiff in the Premier League. All involved would have most probably got away with taking a huge risk.
The fact that it was winter, snowing, flying at night over water, with icing conditions and a PPL doing a hooky commerical flight that was well beyond his capabilities is what led to this.
Everyone took their eye off the ball in regard to safety.
If your a professional footballer that’s just signed a multiple million pound contract and get family of your agent says they are sending a private plane to fly you over, your going to think.... yep, I’ll have some of that, my own private jet with some professional ‘high flying’ outfit.....However, Sala was a grown adult, responsible for his own decisions. That he had a discussion in pidgin Spanish with a CCFC Player Liason Officer over WhatsApp (if you haven't seen them, the PLO offered some commercial flight times, Sala declined and said "Willis McKay" had sorted him a flight, it was left at that by the PLO) is key to it. He was in that unusual period of time that he'd signed for Cardiff but not actually started playing for them - legally he worked for them, but I dare say there is a certain amount of leeway amongst clubs that the player is not really subject to the club's rules (in practice, as opposed to what's in the contract) until his first physical day on the job. That will most likely change as a result of this incident.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/footb...
If some common sense had prevailed he would not have taken the flight. Easy for me to say from the comfort of my home study. In reality he was their young record signing, eager to impress, and missing his first day of training because he was back in France seeing his old team mates and sorting out accomodation for his dog would have looked seriously unprofessional.
Had this been in August, at the end of the summer transfer window, then in all likelihood we would have never heard of Emiliano Sala until he started banging them in for Cardiff in the Premier League. All involved would have most probably got away with taking a huge risk.
The fact that it was winter, snowing, flying at night over water, with icing conditions and a PPL doing a hooky commerical flight that was well beyond his capabilities is what led to this.
Everyone took their eye off the ball in regard to safety.
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Friday 1st March 11:30
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Friday 1st March 11:31
Then that wonky s
tbucket flown by a plumber turns up instead..... Expectations vs reality.....
TTmonkey said:
If your a professional footballer that’s just signed a multiple million pound contract and get family of your agent says they are sending a private plane to fly you over, your going to think.... yep, I’ll have some of that, my own private jet with some professional ‘high flying’ outfit.....
Then that wonky stbucket flown by a plumber turns up instead.....
Expectations vs reality.....
He could have refused to have got on, I would have. He could have then called up whoever he needed to at Cardiff and tell them he was going to be late coming back because he didn't want to risk his life getting on a shonky plane in a storm.Then that wonky s
tbucket flown by a plumber turns up instead..... Expectations vs reality.....
hutchst said:
aeropilot said:
Why are asking about a medical emergency that caused the crash......there's been no suggestion of that, and the evidence, such as there is, doesn't point to that scenario anyway.
So it's been ruled out then? Guvernator said:
TTmonkey said:
If your a professional footballer that’s just signed a multiple million pound contract and get family of your agent says they are sending a private plane to fly you over, your going to think.... yep, I’ll have some of that, my own private jet with some professional ‘high flying’ outfit.....
Then that wonky stbucket flown by a plumber turns up instead.....
Expectations vs reality.....
He could have refused to have got on, I would have. He could have then called up whoever he needed to at Cardiff and tell them he was going to be late coming back because he didn't want to risk his life getting on a shonky plane in a storm.Then that wonky s
tbucket flown by a plumber turns up instead..... Expectations vs reality.....
In any case a Piper Malibu is a still a substantial light aircraft. If people climb on an airliner, what way do they have of knowing whether it, or its pilots are not in fact shonky? As many hundreds of passengers have found out to their ultimate cost, Some aircraft and pilots can be shonky, even big airliners.
hutchst said:
aeropilot said:
Why are asking about a medical emergency that caused the crash......there's been no suggestion of that, and the evidence, such as there is, doesn't point to that scenario anyway.
So it's been ruled out then? Pan Pan Pan said:
The sad problem for Sala is that it would be unlikely for him to be able to know or judge that the plane or indeed the pilot were (to use your words shonky) if indeed they were. Unless an experienced aviator himself he would just have no way of telling.
In any case a Piper Malibu is a still a substantial light aircraft. If people climb on an airliner, what way do they have of knowing whether it, or its pilots are not in fact shonky? As many hundreds of passengers have found out to their ultimate cost, Some aircraft and pilots can be shonky, even big airliners.
Risk of flying in big commercial airliners is several orders of magnitude less than small single or twin engined planes.... even more so comparing the actual risks given the weather.In any case a Piper Malibu is a still a substantial light aircraft. If people climb on an airliner, what way do they have of knowing whether it, or its pilots are not in fact shonky? As many hundreds of passengers have found out to their ultimate cost, Some aircraft and pilots can be shonky, even big airliners.
A friend who worked in the CAA has said the risks of flying in small aircraft are 100s or 1000s of times higher (can’t recall exactly)..
There is an account in Pilot magazine of an incident that could have ended similarly.
A privately owned Piper P46T, the turboprop version of the aircraft in the Sala accident, was flying across the North sea in cloud. The owner was an instrument rated private pilot so qualified to make the flight but for additional safety employed an experienced commercial pilot to fly the aircraft. On being asked to descend to 2,400 feet the pilot reduced the throttle then set the autopilot to make the descent. At 2,400 feet the autopilot levelled the aircraft out but neither pilot remembered to open the throttle. Disaster was only averted because the owner happened to notice just in time that the airspeed was dropping. He reckoned that another few seconds would have lead to s stall, probably unrecoverable in cloud at that altitude.
The fact that the Sala pilot was unqualified is important, but it's possible that the main cause of the accident could have happened to anyone.
A privately owned Piper P46T, the turboprop version of the aircraft in the Sala accident, was flying across the North sea in cloud. The owner was an instrument rated private pilot so qualified to make the flight but for additional safety employed an experienced commercial pilot to fly the aircraft. On being asked to descend to 2,400 feet the pilot reduced the throttle then set the autopilot to make the descent. At 2,400 feet the autopilot levelled the aircraft out but neither pilot remembered to open the throttle. Disaster was only averted because the owner happened to notice just in time that the airspeed was dropping. He reckoned that another few seconds would have lead to s stall, probably unrecoverable in cloud at that altitude.
The fact that the Sala pilot was unqualified is important, but it's possible that the main cause of the accident could have happened to anyone.
Guvernator said:
TTmonkey said:
If your a professional footballer that’s just signed a multiple million pound contract and get family of your agent says they are sending a private plane to fly you over, your going to think.... yep, I’ll have some of that, my own private jet with some professional ‘high flying’ outfit.....
Then that wonky stbucket flown by a plumber turns up instead.....
Expectations vs reality.....
He could have refused to have got on, I would have. He could have then called up whoever he needed to at Cardiff and tell them he was going to be late coming back because he didn't want to risk his life getting on a shonky plane in a storm.Then that wonky s
tbucket flown by a plumber turns up instead..... Expectations vs reality.....
In reality the player declined a commercial flight offered by his club because the timings and location (Nantes vs Paris) of the one offered by McKay Jr suited him most. He probably turned up expecting a Lear jet, but got this old jalopy instead. By then he was in too deep (no pun intended). Bear in mind this is the agent who wasn’t previously his representative, but had effectively cold-called him, brokered a big money move to the Premier League, the world’s your lobster, Rodney. People like this don’t cock about in single engine planes with unqualified pilots, do they?
With respect to what he ‘could’ have done, he’d also just signed for Neil Warnock, a man widely known for not suffering fools gladly. If I were Sala and had declined the club’s offer of a flight and was looking down the barrel of a massive b
king for not turning up on my first day at work I’d have been inclined to get on that return trip too. Not knowing that there was a snowstorm moving south that would likely FUBAR the plane beyond the limitations of the pilot, of course. For clarity I apportion no blame to Warnock: he’s a hard taskmaster who gets results. He rightly would have expected the player to be there to train on day one. Blame lies at the feet of those playing fast and loose with aviation safety rules i.e. the aforementioned pilot switcheroo.
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Saturday 2nd March 12:25
aeropilot said:
Dr Jekyll said:
The fact that the Sala pilot was unqualified is important, but it's possible that the main cause of the accident could have happened to anyone.
I give up.........Commercial and instrumented rated pilots are not immune to either accident or error. I AM NOT DEFENDING THE PILOT.
Merely pointing out that then cause of the accident and the paperwork irregularities are two related but different things.
Edited by Dr Jekyll on Saturday 2nd March 13:30
Dr Jekyll said:
aeropilot said:
Dr Jekyll said:
The fact that the Sala pilot was unqualified is important, but it's possible that the main cause of the accident could have happened to anyone.
I give up.........king ChristI said POSSIBLE POSSIBLE POSSIBLE POSSIBLE POSSIBLE POSSIBLE POSSIBLE POSSIBLE.
Commercial and instrumented rated pilots are not immune to either accident or error. I AM NOT DEFENDING THE PILOT.
Merely pointing out that then cause of the accident and the paperwork irregularities are two related but different things.
: banghead:Just what is your issue?
Jesus f
king Christ.... 
I agree with you, no one is immune from error regardless of experience and qualification. I talk about the human factor every flight I command.
Single Pilot IFR (Instrument Flight Rules - which is what this flight should have been flown under by a suitably qualified and current pilot) Is regarded as some of the most demanding flying you can do.
It would appear, however that this chap was way out of his league and should never been at the controls.
Tragic case.
Chuck328 said:
Take a deep breath now
I agree with you, no one is immune from error regardless of experience and qualification. I talk about the human factor every flight I command.
Single Pilot IFR (Instrument Flight Rules - which is what this flight should have been flown under by a suitably qualified and current pilot) Is regarded as some of the most demanding flying you can do.
It would appear, however that this chap was way out of his league and should never been at the controls.
Tragic case.
I think there is a reasonable possibility that there was in issue with the aircraft’s de-icing systems. I believe it was reported somewhere that that was the case.I agree with you, no one is immune from error regardless of experience and qualification. I talk about the human factor every flight I command.
Single Pilot IFR (Instrument Flight Rules - which is what this flight should have been flown under by a suitably qualified and current pilot) Is regarded as some of the most demanding flying you can do.
It would appear, however that this chap was way out of his league and should never been at the controls.
Tragic case.
Combined with an unfamiliarity of the aircraft systems and not being able to work around the issue it might become a critical problem in a matter of minutes. There is also the possibility that the de-icing needs constant cycling to keep removing new ice.
Beyond a certain level of ice build-up the aircraft will be uncontrollable by any pilot regardless of skill and experience.
Given that icing conditions were reported at the altitude being flown, this to me is the smoking gun.
Medical emergency will be orders of magnitude less likely.
So a combination of pilot inexperience/error and equipment problems might be what ultimately brought the aircraft down.
Most air accidents are a sequence of small events that eventually lead to a big one.
Yeh I did read about that.
GT119 said:
So a combination of pilot inexperience/error and equipment problems might be what ultimately brought the aircraft down..
Agreed, looks very likely.GT119 said:
Most air accidents are a sequence of small events that eventually lead to a big one
Swiss Cheese!funinhounslow said:
GT119 said:
Most air accidents are a sequence of small events that eventually lead to a big one.
This phenomenon is known to scuba divers as the "incident pit"...The ultimate cause of this though wether technical or not is his planning phase and electing to depart with the forecast weather.
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