Nurses, Rail Staff and Now Driving Examiners

[irc]

Gecko1978 said:

However the idea of the PM negotiating is just a political trap. He either looks weak if he gives in or like he does not understand peoples needs if he refuses.

It's a no win for him. However if in the background he does not pull some leavers then there is a risk the government fails.

Not sure how the govt can fail. They have a sufficient majority. With the polls the way they are there is no way Sunak will call an election before late 2024.

As for the strikes? The country has got used to living with strikes. The govt is not going to give in and give any public sector group of workers a 10% pay rise. Why should they? As above - they just look weak. Nobody is going to say "wonderful!" "Thanks!" "I'll vote Tory in the next election".

The only (slim) chance the Tories hav e of not being utterly destroyed in 2024 is if the economy looks better and inflation is well down. Granting a series of high pay rises will not help the fight against inflation.

[Vasco]

The government has said all along that they won't give in to excessive wage demands - and they haven't.
Give them a bit of credit, if they'd given rail staff 11% and nurses 19% there would be no shortage of critics pointing out that inflation was getting ever worse.
I lnow they are, deservedly, unpopular for a range of issues - but not everything!

[vulture1]

Apart from the trying to buy votes the Government really shot themselves in the foot giving the pensioners 10%

[vulture1]

MiniMan64 said:

Hugo Stiglitz said:

MiniMan64 said:

If the job conditions, wages and perks are so great for teachers and nurses then why are they so many job vacancies in those sectors?

How many and who is advertising them?

A official source, not a journalist link.

I work in a school, does that count as official?

In my specialty there are zero trainees coming through this years pipeline locally. Last year there was one.

In a some specialities there are plenty, like PE but Maths, Physics, Chemistry are dying on their arse. In 5-10 years these subjects are mostly going to be taught by non-specialists

Those 3 subjects i imaginwe a skill in them other careers offer far more money.
I mean we all know the jokes about PE teachers. Not exactly a tough subect to learn and probably the easiest in school as any troublemakers usually (usually) are actually into PE anyway.

[JagLover]

vulture1 said:

Apart from the trying to buy votes the Government really shot themselves in the foot giving the pensioners 10%

As far as I am aware the state pension has risen by at least the rate of inflation since its creation.

All other benefits are also rising by the CPI rate in September 2022
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-brie...

But the focus for some is only on the sole remaining significant universal benefit, that is repayment for a lifetime of NI contributions.

Edited by JagLover on Monday 6th February 06:16

[JagLover]

Nursing strikes have been paused in Wales after a new pay offer was made of an extra 1.5% and a one off payment of 1.5%.

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2023-02-03/ambulanc...

[Electro1980]

JagLover said:

As far as I am aware the state pension has risen by at least the rate of inflation since its creation.

All other benefits are also rising by the CPI rate in September 2022
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-brie...

But the focus for some is only on the sole remaining significant universal benefit, that is repayment for a lifetime of NI contributions.

Edited by JagLover on Monday 6th February 06:16

Change the record. That wasn’t the killer argument you think it is the last 100 times you said it.

[otolith]

Evanivitch said:

Precisely. Many engineering organisations recognised decades ago that some people do not want/are not suitable for line management capabilities, but nonetheless are incredibly capable engineers.

The best teachers are still capable of sharing their knowledge and experience (like through mentoring student teachers and department training and local authority training events), but they shouldn't have to become line managers to be suitably rewarded for their skillset.

I used to work for a civil engineering consultancy which fixed this problem. Their issue was that eventually you had to promote someone to being a director, at which point it was assumed they would be client facing. The example I was given was a particular senior engineer whose excellent technical and terrible interpersonal skills were such that he would be best utilised by locking him in a cellar and pushing specifications under the door.

[Gecko1978]

irc said:

Gecko1978 said:

However the idea of the PM negotiating is just a political trap. He either looks weak if he gives in or like he does not understand peoples needs if he refuses.

It's a no win for him. However if in the background he does not pull some leavers then there is a risk the government fails.

Not sure how the govt can fail. They have a sufficient majority. With the polls the way they are there is no way Sunak will call an election before late 2024.

As for the strikes? The country has got used to living with strikes. The govt is not going to give in and give any public sector group of workers a 10% pay rise. Why should they? As above - they just look weak. Nobody is going to say "wonderful!" "Thanks!" "I'll vote Tory in the next election".

The only (slim) chance the Tories hav e of not being utterly destroyed in 2024 is if the economy looks better and inflation is well down. Granting a series of high pay rises will not help the fight against inflation.

It comes down to will power really. So to keep it on topic. Of a nurse strikes how long can they go not getting paid how long can they suffer moral outrage if people begin to die.

Of the government say no to pay rises an nurses stop working it's too opposing forces at its extream car crash victims dying at the side of the road becuase ambulance never comes or it gets to A&E an no nurses. An the union say the government will not engage with us. Things can change we had a pm for 44 days nothing is set in stone

[Brave Fart]

JagLover said:

As far as I am aware the state pension has risen by at least the rate of inflation since its creation.
<edit for brevity>
But the focus for some is only on the sole remaining significant universal benefit, that is repayment for a lifetime of NI contributions.

It's a good point that you make, I think. I often hear people complaining that the government favours pensioners over, say, nurses: "Yeah, they give all those rich pensioners 10% to buy their votes, but the nurses get nothing."

What is rarely mentioned is that 1) the state pension is around £10k p.a. compared to a multiple of that for a public sector employee, that 2) benefits are also being uprated along with pensions, that 3) a full state pension is an entitlement based on decades of NI payments, and that 4) the minimum wage is also going up by around 10%.

But yeah, grrr Tory pensioners.........

[JagLover]

Brave Fart said:

It's a good point that you make, I think. I often hear people complaining that the government favours pensioners over, say, nurses: "Yeah, they give all those rich pensioners 10% to buy their votes, but the nurses get nothing."

What is rarely mentioned is that 1) the state pension is around £10k p.a. compared to a multiple of that for a public sector employee, that 2) benefits are also being uprated along with pensions, that 3) a full state pension is an entitlement based on decades of NI payments, and that 4) the minimum wage is also going up by around 10%.

But yeah, grrr Tory pensioners.........

And 5. Increasingly the state pension in this way has the support of all age groups according to polling. The triple lock may well be discarded but I think it is highly likely that the state pension will continue to increase by at least the rate of inflation, regardless of the tie colour of the next government.

[Ashfordian]

Gecko1978 said:

It comes down to will power really. So to keep it on topic. Of a nurse strikes how long can they go not getting paid how long can they suffer moral outrage if people begin to die.

Of the government say no to pay rises an nurses stop working it's too opposing forces at its extream car crash victims dying at the side of the road becuase ambulance never comes or it gets to A&E an no nurses. An the union say the government will not engage with us. Things can change we had a pm for 44 days nothing is set in stone

With such large staff shortages in nursing and paramedics, they will just work an overtime shift to make up for a strike day. Unless the Government ban overtime (not going to happen) they are on a losing wicket here while there are staff shortages.

As we can see from Wales, it is not going to take much of an increase in the offer to end the industrial action. And this small increase is probably overall cheaper than the overtime costs the NHS will now be paying out.

[Vasco]

JagLover said:

Brave Fart said:

It's a good point that you make, I think. I often hear people complaining that the government favours pensioners over, say, nurses: "Yeah, they give all those rich pensioners 10% to buy their votes, but the nurses get nothing."

What is rarely mentioned is that 1) the state pension is around £10k p.a. compared to a multiple of that for a public sector employee, that 2) benefits are also being uprated along with pensions, that 3) a full state pension is an entitlement based on decades of NI payments, and that 4) the minimum wage is also going up by around 10%.

But yeah, grrr Tory pensioners.........

And 5. Increasingly the state pension in this way has the support of all age groups according to polling. The triple lock may well be discarded but I think it is highly likely that the state pension will continue to increase by at least the rate of inflation, regardless of the tie colour of the next government.

I certainly can't see any potential Labour government failing to increase the pension.

[valiant]

Brave Fart said:

JagLover said:

As far as I am aware the state pension has risen by at least the rate of inflation since its creation.
<edit for brevity>
But the focus for some is only on the sole remaining significant universal benefit, that is repayment for a lifetime of NI contributions.

It's a good point that you make, I think. I often hear people complaining that the government favours pensioners over, say, nurses: "Yeah, they give all those rich pensioners 10% to buy their votes, but the nurses get nothing."

What is rarely mentioned is that 1) the state pension is around £10k p.a. compared to a multiple of that for a public sector employee, that 2) benefits are also being uprated along with pensions, that 3) a full state pension is an entitlement based on decades of NI payments, and that 4) the minimum wage is also going up by around 10%.

But yeah, grrr Tory pensioners.........

Of course you’re quite correct but you can’t have a government blaming inflationary pressures on one hand for not giving out an inflation based pay rise to nurses, etc and then ignoring potential inflationary pressures by giving out an inflation based rise in pensions and other benefits.

[Flooble]

Vasco said:

I certainly can't see any potential Labour government failing to increase the pension.

I can - I can see them bringing in means testing.

"Saved up some money while you were working so you could have a few luxuries in retirement? Tough - you can use that to live off"

"Wasted all your money, or never worked at all? Fab, have a full pension!"

The cynic would think that the way the media pushes "Pensioners got a rise, nurses didn't" while not pushing "Handout Claimants got a rise, nurses didn't" is part of the agenda.

[JagLover]

Flooble said:

I can - I can see them bringing in means testing.

"Saved up some money while you were working so you could have a few luxuries in retirement? Tough - you can use that to live off"

"Wasted all your money, or never worked at all? Fab, have a full pension!"

The cynic would think that the way the media pushes "Pensioners got a rise, nurses didn't" while not pushing "Handout Claimants got a rise, nurses didn't" is part of the agenda.

I think that is rather doubtful for two reasons. Firstly because it would change the basis under which NI contributions are made and so strikes at the heart of the welfare state. Secondly because any means testing will hit retired public sector workers hardest and their unions help fund the party.

[Flooble]

JagLover said:

Flooble said:

I can - I can see them bringing in means testing.

"Saved up some money while you were working so you could have a few luxuries in retirement? Tough - you can use that to live off"

"Wasted all your money, or never worked at all? Fab, have a full pension!"

The cynic would think that the way the media pushes "Pensioners got a rise, nurses didn't" while not pushing "Handout Claimants got a rise, nurses didn't" is part of the agenda.

I think that is rather doubtful for two reasons. Firstly because it would change the basis under which NI contributions are made and so strikes at the heart of the welfare state. Secondly because any means testing will hit retired public sector workers hardest and their unions help fund the party.

Good points, although I am so deeply cynical that I can see them making the means test only applicable to private sector pensioners via some chicanery such as basing it on the amount of money you used to buy your annuity (or the size of the pot from which you are drawing down if you don't buy an annuity). Just advance the "Too hard to calculate the value of the public sector pension", or "Valued Public Sector Key Workers worked for lower salary in return for a higher pension" arguments.

The Tories are going to be out of power for a generation at the next GE - I would say it will easily be a three-term Labour government. Plenty of scope to make some really big changes. Just raise the bogeymen of "Grrr Boris" and "Grr Brexit".

[mooseracer]

Flooble said:

JagLover said:

Flooble said:

I can - I can see them bringing in means testing.

"Saved up some money while you were working so you could have a few luxuries in retirement? Tough - you can use that to live off"

"Wasted all your money, or never worked at all? Fab, have a full pension!"

The cynic would think that the way the media pushes "Pensioners got a rise, nurses didn't" while not pushing "Handout Claimants got a rise, nurses didn't" is part of the agenda.

I think that is rather doubtful for two reasons. Firstly because it would change the basis under which NI contributions are made and so strikes at the heart of the welfare state. Secondly because any means testing will hit retired public sector workers hardest and their unions help fund the party.

Good points, although I am so deeply cynical that I can see them making the means test only applicable to private sector pensioners via some chicanery such as basing it on the amount of money you used to buy your annuity (or the size of the pot from which you are drawing down if you don't buy an annuity). Just advance the "Too hard to calculate the value of the public sector pension", or "Valued Public Sector Key Workers worked for lower salary in return for a higher pension" arguments.

The Tories are going to be out of power for a generation at the next GE - I would say it will easily be a three-term Labour government. Plenty of scope to make some really big changes. Just raise the bogeymen of "Grrr Boris" and "Grr Brexit".

"How is it fair that someone with a £600k private pension recevies the same government support in old age as ordinary working people?"
It wouldn't be much of a leap for them.

[Vasco]

Flooble said:

Good points, although I am so deeply cynical that I can see them making the means test only applicable to private sector pensioners via some chicanery such as basing it on the amount of money you used to buy your annuity (or the size of the pot from which you are drawing down if you don't buy an annuity). Just advance the "Too hard to calculate the value of the public sector pension", or "Valued Public Sector Key Workers worked for lower salary in return for a higher pension" arguments.

The Tories are going to be out of power for a generation at the next GE - I would say it will easily be a three-term Labour government. Plenty of scope to make some really big changes. Just raise the bogeymen of "Grrr Boris" and "Grr Brexit".

I reckon that the Tories will be out at the next GE but Labour will be their usual poor self and Tories will be back in after one term - but I accept that this isn't the right thread!

[oyster]

I walked past a huge crowd of striking nurses today at a major London hospital. They were singing a few Katie Perry numbers and seemed to be in very high spirits. With the klaxons, flags, singing, joy and dancing it felt like a real party atmosphere there.
Just a pity some poor folk are in pain a bit longer as they had their treatments cancelled so the nurses could throw a street party.