The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
wiggy001 said:
The British people in general couldn't be more liberal and accommodating in my opinion. We are very much of the opinion of "live and let live". Until we feel that a lifestyle or ideal is being pushed upon us. Then we, rightly or wrongly, instinctively resist the change, almost for the sake of resisting. Again, the parallels with multiculturalism are obvious.
That's pretty much spot on - it's only having special interest groups banging on at us that makes us dig our heels in, IMHO.p2c said:
wiggy001 said:
p2c said:
Like ClockworkCupcake there is a lot to agree with, but it just seems at odds that I'm told its insignificant but the level of outrage is so high its made the papers, and several pages on PH.
Maybe it's the fact that it has made the papers is a big part of the issue I have with it. They could quite easily have updated the announcements without anyone giving it a second thought if their real aim was to actually be inclusive. No-one would have realised but their supposed aim would have been met. Instead somebody deliberately took it to the press to make an issue out of it. They obviously feel this gives them some moral superiority as they are not only making these small changes to become more inclusive, but they are making sure everyone knows about it. Which annoys people like me for the reasons I've already stated.It's like people that give to charity or a homeless person then tell everyone about it. If your aim was to help the charity/person then well done you. But if your aim was to tell everyone how great you are, get a pat on the back and feel all warm and cosy inside for doing so then please just do one.
The British people in general couldn't be more liberal and accommodating in my opinion. We are very much of the opinion of "live and let live". Until we feel that a lifestyle or ideal is being pushed upon us. Then we, rightly or wrongly, instinctively resist the change, almost for the sake of resisting. Again, the parallels with multiculturalism are obvious.
Don't get me wrong, There is nowhere I would rather be as a trans person as its just about tolerable and we are not going backwards like the USA who last week introduced a bill into congress to strip nearly all trans discrimination protections,
So something like TfL making these changes, I think it should be announced, quietly and to industry so that other companies follow suit from their example, But I would rather it didn't end up like this has, but that's only going to happen when it becomes familiar and no one cares, no one wants to argue against it on PH, its just, so what, why haven't they done it already etc.
On a similar line I must admit I do find myself sometimes wondering if my contributions here only make matters worse. these threads would probably die out in a day or so if Clockworkcupcake, myself and a few others stayed clear, But then I look at the tone of this incarnation and wonder if all those past bun fights are having an effect as this one has been far less adversarial, But silence isn't going to make a difference, If PH becomes an anti trans echo chamber, Likewise whilst this announcement has not been exactly positive in some areas, hopefully next time there will just be a shrug of the shoulders and front page news it wont be.
wiggy001 said:
Can I just say, as someone with very Tory, right of centre, "it was better in the old days" (typical PH) views, but who also has a "live and let live" libertarian attitude to life, these threads are so much more worthwhile with contributions from ClockworkCupcake and yourself. The whole point of a forum is to get real-world discussion and having some insight from the other side of the fence is much appreciated. I like the fact that neither of you appear "militant" in your thinking which is probably why this thread has remained surprisingly civil as it shows that most of us have far more in common that we'd sometimes like to think.
p2c said:
Yeah likewise I flippantly dismissed the Dr as not being a trans issue but you raise some very valid points, Whilst I'm not an avid fan or even follower of the Dr it could be interesting
Those getting upset about the tube announcements are going to freak out now!
Those getting upset about the tube announcements are going to freak out now!
.. it's really not a 'trans' issue, it really isn't. The Surveyor said:
p2c said:
Yeah likewise I flippantly dismissed the Dr as not being a trans issue but you raise some very valid points, Whilst I'm not an avid fan or even follower of the Dr it could be interesting
Those getting upset about the tube announcements are going to freak out now!
Those getting upset about the tube announcements are going to freak out now!
.. it's really not a 'trans' issue, it really isn't. However, I think it will have interesting ramifications. We have a character who has changed gender, and people all over the internet and the media are now going to be trying to work out how you refer to someone who used to be a man and is now a woman. The English language will evolve as a result.
p2c said:
On a similar line I must admit I do find myself sometimes wondering if my contributions here only make matters worse. these threads would probably die out in a day or so if Clockworkcupcake, myself and a few others stayed clear, But then I look at the tone of this incarnation and wonder if all those past bun fights are having an effect as this one has been far less adversarial, But silence isn't going to make a difference, If PH becomes an anti trans echo chamber, Likewise whilst this announcement has not been exactly positive in some areas, hopefully next time there will just be a shrug of the shoulders and front page news it wont be.
You could be right. However, even the Nolar Dog thread started out fairly positive until she alienated herself, and then it was a case of people disliking her personally rather than the fact she was trans. The real unpleasant vitriol came out in the marriage equality threads.
However, yes, I think that on the whole there has a been a tangible softening of attitude on PH towards transgenderism. I think the biggest evidence for me personally is going into a thread expecting to see the usual s
t and being pleasantly surprised to find that, with the exception of the usual suspects, it's all rather positive. So I guess that is a fair indication of a shift in attitude. I think at the end of the day, a lot of people on PH are still just decent folk who want to talk about cars and stuff. That's why I have never pushed my gender identity here (I don't really feel it is particularly relevant), although I was feeling increasingly uncomfortable with the username "JonRB" which is why I changed it to something gender-neutral. But I digress.
p2c said:
On a similar line I must admit I do find myself sometimes wondering if my contributions here only make matters worse. these threads would probably die out in a day or so if Clockworkcupcake, myself and a few others stayed clear, But then I look at the tone of this incarnation and wonder if all those past bun fights are having an effect as this one has been far less adversarial, But silence isn't going to make a difference, If PH becomes an anti trans echo chamber, Likewise whilst this announcement has not been exactly positive in some areas, hopefully next time there will just be a shrug of the shoulders and front page news it wont be.
wiggy001 said:
Can I just say, as someone with very Tory, right of centre, "it was better in the old days" (typical PH) views, but who also has a "live and let live" libertarian attitude to life, these threads are so much more worthwhile with contributions from ClockworkCupcake and yourself. The whole point of a forum is to get real-world discussion and having some insight from the other side of the fence is much appreciated. I like the fact that neither of you appear "militant" in your thinking which is probably why this thread has remained surprisingly civil as it shows that most of us have far more in common that we'd sometimes like to think.
.. added to the fact we are all individuals and our individuality should be respected.
As a respectful question, and to assist with the understanding of the issues. ClockworkCupcake suggested earlier that 'Ladies and Gentlemen' would encapsulate the trans community as they would be identifying as either, so does the term 'trans' imply that people in this group are seeking to transform from one gender to the other (man to woman, woman to man) or are seeking to live in an androgynous style. It may be a rather basic question at this stage in the thread, but the more I think about this thread, the more I'm confused.
If the issue is for those who are seeking to transform, then why the need to change any terminology. We are male staying male, female staying female, female becoming male etc, the masculine and famine language works for all situations and there is nothing to be gained by any changes in language other than to simply raise awareness of the issues.
....Or is the issue related to those seeking to live without any gender identification (hence the removal of such identification terms such as the TfL platform announcements) in which case we can never remove all the wider reminders that the vast majority of the population identify in the gender to which they were born. Changes to language would have no impact on the way that society views gender as 99.9% all identify as either male or female, meaning the wider population will always simply be a reminder to those seeking to remove such labels of their individuality.
The Surveyor said:
As a respectful question, and to assist with the understanding of the issues. ClockworkCupcake suggested earlier that 'Ladies and Gentlemen' would encapsulate the trans community as they would be identifying as either, so does the term 'trans' imply that people in this group are seeking to transform from one gender to the other (man to woman, woman to man) or are seeking to live in an androgynous style. It may be a rather basic question at this stage in the thread, but the more I think about this thread, the more I'm confused.
I actually said that I didn't have a problem with it for me personally. I didn't presume to speak for the trans community. And even then I put the caveat on it that it was a weary acceptance of how society is right now, rather than an ideal situation.
The Surveyor said:
If the issue is for those who are seeking to transform, then why the need to change any terminology. We are male staying male, female staying female, female becoming male etc, the masculine and famine language works for all situations and there is nothing to be gained by any changes in language other than to simply raise awareness of the issues.
....Or is the issue related to those seeking to live without any gender identification (hence the removal of such identification terms such as the TfL platform announcements) in which case we can never remove all the wider reminders that the vast majority of the population identify in the gender to which they were born. Changes to language would have no impact on the way that society views gender as 99.9% all identify as either male or female, meaning the wider population will always simply be a reminder to those seeking to remove such labels of their individuality.
The issue is that for many people there are, as far as they are concerned, two genders: male and female, and that transgender people want to move from one to the other (so 'trans' as in 'move across'). We generally refer to such people as transsexuals as they want to change their perceived sex. ....Or is the issue related to those seeking to live without any gender identification (hence the removal of such identification terms such as the TfL platform announcements) in which case we can never remove all the wider reminders that the vast majority of the population identify in the gender to which they were born. Changes to language would have no impact on the way that society views gender as 99.9% all identify as either male or female, meaning the wider population will always simply be a reminder to those seeking to remove such labels of their individuality.
However, many other people (myself included) believe that gender is a spectrum, just like sexuality is. So just like it is possible to say "I generally fancy girls, but there are some guys a really fancy too" (ie. to be bisexual, without it implying a strict 50:50 as some seem to think), I believe it is possible to say that you have elements of both genders and wish to express that. We call that transgender ('trans' as in 'between' or 'spanning'), although it's also called genderfluid or genderqueer. Some transgender people can encompass both genders, whilst others neither (ie. being androgynous and asexual).
Frankly even I find it all a bit confusing, so don't worry if you do too.
For me, personally, I'm equally happy, or equally unhappy, in either gender (provided I don't have to stick to one) so I don't see any need to go through expensive and painful surgery to transition from one rigid gender role that doesn't totally suit me, to the other rigid gender role that doesn't totally suit me. Although if I had to choose one it would be female.
So in 'guy mode' most people see a slightly camp and effeminate bloke who has suspiciously long and well manicured nails, nicely trimmed eyebrows, and who doesn't seem very blokey or interested in "guy stuff". And in 'girl mode' I just look like a woman and am accepted as one by pretty much everyone I meet.
ClockworkCupcake said:
Of course, it does nothing to change the perception of gender binary as The Doctor has merely transitioned from one gender binary to the other, but it could rather ironically be a positive step as the issue becomes part of pop culture.
[/footnote]
Does the doctor have a gender at all? Remember The Doctor is a time-lord, not a human. We know this being has two hearts, so what's to say the outward appearance is either male or female? Certainly, the current doctor might look more feminine in a human context, but as an alien being, what's to say this being has either a penis or a vagina? That the beings can transition between apparent genders would also suggest that they carry all the reproductive organs, not just a half or subset of them.[/footnote]
feef said:
Does the doctor have a gender at all? Remember The Doctor is a time-lord, not a human. We know this being has two hearts, so what's to say the outward appearance is either male or female? Certainly, the current doctor might look more feminine in a human context, but as an alien being, what's to say this being has either a penis or a vagina? That the beings can transition between apparent genders would also suggest that they carry all the reproductive organs, not just a half or subset of them.
Well, quite. But there is a separate Dr Who thread running on that so no need to address it here.
My point was that will cause a lot of people who would not have discussed gender transition issues to now do so, even if it is inadvertently and unknowingly. I think it is possible that the English Language could evolve as a result. Or at the very least the concept enter the public consciousness a little more than in the past.
ClockworkCupcake said:
I was feeling increasingly uncomfortable with the username "JonRB" which is why I changed it to something gender-neutral. But I digress.
I had absolutely no idea you and JonRB (a poster I've always thought had a good posting style with reasoned debate) were one and the same. No idea why I felt the need to state that actually, but hey ho...ClockworkCupcake said:
The issue is that for many people there are, as far as they are concerned, two genders: male and female, and that transgender people want to move from one to the other (so 'trans' as in 'move across'). We generally refer to such people as transsexuals as they want to change their perceived sex.
However, many other people (myself included) believe that gender is a spectrum, just like sexuality is. So just like it is possible to say "I generally fancy girls, but there are some guys a really fancy too" (ie. to be bisexual, without it implying a strict 50:50 as some seem to think), I believe it is possible to say that you have elements of both genders and wish to express that. We call that transgender ('trans' as in 'between' or 'spanning'), although it's also called genderfluid or genderqueer. Some transgender people can encompass both genders, whilst others neither (ie. being androgynous and asexual).
Well there are those of us (such as myself) that just don't acknowledge this idea of 'gender' as an amalgamation of behaviours and feelings and consider it a misappropriation of the word. As such by that definition the whole concept of transgenderism is totally meaningless whereas transexual at least has a meaning (to me they mean one and the same thing). However, many other people (myself included) believe that gender is a spectrum, just like sexuality is. So just like it is possible to say "I generally fancy girls, but there are some guys a really fancy too" (ie. to be bisexual, without it implying a strict 50:50 as some seem to think), I believe it is possible to say that you have elements of both genders and wish to express that. We call that transgender ('trans' as in 'between' or 'spanning'), although it's also called genderfluid or genderqueer. Some transgender people can encompass both genders, whilst others neither (ie. being androgynous and asexual).
If a new word was picked to describe this collection of behaviours and feelings (call it flibble for example) then people could describe their flibble as male, female, transflibble, flibblefluid, queerflibble or whatever tweaks their fancy, nobody would have a problem with this and there would be no confusion. It could also then be ignored as it has absolutely no relevance to anybody but the individual, we could have a truly modern flibbleless society and everyone would be happy. It is 2017 and I genuinely don't think that many people mind how people dress, act and get themselves off however they do mind being told to abandon their understanding of parts of their language to appease a militant minority pushing an agenda.
Terms of address, titles, descriptors etc aren't picked by most of us to acknowledge the persons feelings, they are simply to aid identification. This hijacking of words which, to much of the population, have existing meanings and then getting offended when people use them as they understand them rather than as a certain minority would like them to be used is the root of the problems IMO. Someone describing an 6'4" individual with a deep voice and a penis in a dress as him, he, Mr etc isn't usually trying to be offensive they are simply describing what they see in a manner which others will understand, it doesn't imply any opinion or prejudice about the individual concerned.
ambuletz said:
you should have told her she was pissing you off. that sounds really annoying. whenever a friend of mine has a baby i always joke with them 'so what gender have you assigned your baby'.. truth is I think it's all a load of kack.
I did in the end, just before leaving!Also I've seen the gender thing play out in my very own family, my cousin was furious with her sister as she'd bought her daughter a dolly for Xmas as oppose to a gender neutral toy - it caused quite a row.
ClockworkCupcake said:
No, the changes with Doctor Who aren't a trans issue as such and I never said they were.
However, I think it will have interesting ramifications. We have a character who has changed gender, and people all over the internet and the media are now going to be trying to work out how you refer to someone who used to be a man and is now a woman. The English language will evolve as a result.
Easy, she's called 'The Doctor' just like the last one was. Doctors have always been either male of female, no changes to the English language needed at all.However, I think it will have interesting ramifications. We have a character who has changed gender, and people all over the internet and the media are now going to be trying to work out how you refer to someone who used to be a man and is now a woman. The English language will evolve as a result.
ClockworkCupcake said:
.......
Frankly even I find it all a bit confusing, so don't worry if you do too.
........
So in 'guy mode' most people see a slightly camp and effeminate bloke who has suspiciously long and well manicured nails, nicely trimmed eyebrows, and who doesn't seem very blokey or interested in "guy stuff". And in 'girl mode' I just look like a woman and am accepted as one by pretty much everyone I meet.
Thanks for that, a little more understood, but way to many other questions... Frankly even I find it all a bit confusing, so don't worry if you do too.
........
So in 'guy mode' most people see a slightly camp and effeminate bloke who has suspiciously long and well manicured nails, nicely trimmed eyebrows, and who doesn't seem very blokey or interested in "guy stuff". And in 'girl mode' I just look like a woman and am accepted as one by pretty much everyone I meet.
You're last para is quite telling and sad to read as it suggests that when you're in 'girl mode' you are more accepted than when you are in 'guy mode'. Something I'd never considered.
I think it's a bit like the Welsh - well, not all of them.
I was in a pub last year with some Welsh militant going off on one about the nasty English etc... I was then asked my views, as a nasty Englishman.
I said that no one I've ever spoken with has ever mentioned any issues with the Welsh. I said that as far as I know, no one I know even thinks about it, let alone has issue with them.
He got even more upset at the fact that 'he', The Welsh (as he obviously spoke for all of them) and their suffering. wasn't consuming my every waking hour. Until he got all shouty, I thought he was ok - now I think he's a moron for trying to find an argument where there wasn't one.
He got even more upset when I told him that.
I went to the loo and he'd gone by the time I got back.
Wonder if he was called Owen Jones - that's quite a Welshy name...
I was in a pub last year with some Welsh militant going off on one about the nasty English etc... I was then asked my views, as a nasty Englishman.
I said that no one I've ever spoken with has ever mentioned any issues with the Welsh. I said that as far as I know, no one I know even thinks about it, let alone has issue with them.
He got even more upset at the fact that 'he', The Welsh (as he obviously spoke for all of them) and their suffering. wasn't consuming my every waking hour. Until he got all shouty, I thought he was ok - now I think he's a moron for trying to find an argument where there wasn't one.
He got even more upset when I told him that.
I went to the loo and he'd gone by the time I got back.
Wonder if he was called Owen Jones - that's quite a Welshy name...
wiggy001 said:
ClockworkCupcake said:
I was feeling increasingly uncomfortable with the username "JonRB" which is why I changed it to something gender-neutral. But I digress.
I had absolutely no idea you and JonRB (a poster I've always thought had a good posting style with reasoned debate) were one and the same. No idea why I felt the need to state that actually, but hey ho...Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff