Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
Edinburger said:
Rather than looking back, let's look forward...
If the UK leaves the EU with no deal and if the SNP manage to call a referendum on Scottish independence, how many people who voted No in 2014 would now seriously consider voting Yes? And if not, why not?
Well its far too early to say, isn't it? Because assuming the person answering the question isn't an ideologue for either independence or the Union, and thus feels able to change their mind from their previous position, then the option to stay or leave entirely depends on what the SNP offer.If the UK leaves the EU with no deal and if the SNP manage to call a referendum on Scottish independence, how many people who voted No in 2014 would now seriously consider voting Yes? And if not, why not?
I'm not opposed to Scottish independence if I feel it can be pulled off by a competent group and if the execution plan doesn't present a significant risk to our economy. But lets be honest, that's highly unlikely to ever be the case, and Scotland does just fine in my view as part of the Union, even if Westminster is in turmoil at the moment.
Also, in my opinion the SNP have a credibility problem brought on by their actions and tactics in 2014 - they were too hungry and would have happily hoodwinked the population to get what they wanted, and so I'm far more sceptical of them than I would be if it was any other party offering up an Independent Scotland. I'd go so far as to say I hate them, but that's because of their (and their supporter's) conduct rather than policies.
So they have a MASSIVE uphill battle to ever convince me to place my trust in them to even run the country in it's current state, before I'd trust them to take Scotland out the Union..
Wrathalanche said:
Edinburger said:
Rather than looking back, let's look forward...
If the UK leaves the EU with no deal and if the SNP manage to call a referendum on Scottish independence, how many people who voted No in 2014 would now seriously consider voting Yes? And if not, why not?
Well its far too early to say, isn't it? Because assuming the person answering the question isn't an ideologue for either independence or the Union, and thus feels able to change their mind from their previous position, then the option to stay or leave entirely depends on what the SNP offer.If the UK leaves the EU with no deal and if the SNP manage to call a referendum on Scottish independence, how many people who voted No in 2014 would now seriously consider voting Yes? And if not, why not?
I'm not opposed to Scottish independence if I feel it can be pulled off by a competent group and if the execution plan doesn't present a significant risk to our economy. But lets be honest, that's highly unlikely to ever be the case, and Scotland does just fine in my view as part of the Union, even if Westminster is in turmoil at the moment.
Also, in my opinion the SNP have a credibility problem brought on by their actions and tactics in 2014 - they were too hungry and would have happily hoodwinked the population to get what they wanted, and so I'm far more sceptical of them than I would be if it was any other party offering up an Independent Scotland. I'd go so far as to say I hate them, but that's because of their (and their supporter's) conduct rather than policies.
So they have a MASSIVE uphill battle to ever convince me to place my trust in them to even run the country in it's current state, before I'd trust them to take Scotland out the Union..
Wrathalanche said:
Edinburger said:
Rather than looking back, let's look forward...
If the UK leaves the EU with no deal and if the SNP manage to call a referendum on Scottish independence, how many people who voted No in 2014 would now seriously consider voting Yes? And if not, why not?
Well its far too early to say, isn't it? Because assuming the person answering the question isn't an ideologue for either independence or the Union, and thus feels able to change their mind from their previous position, then the option to stay or leave entirely depends on what the SNP offer.If the UK leaves the EU with no deal and if the SNP manage to call a referendum on Scottish independence, how many people who voted No in 2014 would now seriously consider voting Yes? And if not, why not?
I'm not opposed to Scottish independence if I feel it can be pulled off by a competent group and if the execution plan doesn't present a significant risk to our economy. But lets be honest, that's highly unlikely to ever be the case, and Scotland does just fine in my view as part of the Union, even if Westminster is in turmoil at the moment.
Also, in my opinion the SNP have a credibility problem brought on by their actions and tactics in 2014 - they were too hungry and would have happily hoodwinked the population to get what they wanted, and so I'm far more sceptical of them than I would be if it was any other party offering up an Independent Scotland. I'd go so far as to say I hate them, but that's because of their (and their supporter's) conduct rather than policies.
So they have a MASSIVE uphill battle to ever convince me to place my trust in them to even run the country in it's current state, before I'd trust them to take Scotland out the Union..
Edinburger said:
Good post
+1Plus, putting aside the SNP's aspirations to govern, I'll ask again (seeing as Strocky was too feart to engage).....
Given the divisiveness of the Brexit referendum result and the process that has ensued to reverse or mitigate it by political factions motivated by their own self interest (a process those pushing for Scottish independence have ironically aligned themselves with), and giving rUK the role of the EU, with no reason nor incentive to give any concession or quarter in negotiations with what is an unruly neighbour who has denigrated you to the point of wanting to leave yet now wants you to play nice, how does that play as a model for a similarly marginal 'win' for Scottish independence?
What would be different?
Edited by Evercross on Wednesday 13th March 13:16
Evercross said:
Firstly, can we get the language straight - SNP cannot 'call' another referendum. Like it or not it is illegal for them to do so (and as I keep saying, if nothing else, Brexit has taught us all that when it comes to the crunch technocracy trumps emotive b
ks every time).
It wouldn't be illegal to hold a referendum without a S30 order, however it would only have advisory status (like that small Brexit Referendum)ks every time).David Davis & Geoffery Cox recently have opined indavertantly about the matter regarding Sovereign countries
Far from protecting the Union, witholding a S30 order just makes the UK Gov and it's supporters look quite weak in defence of the Union (understandably after the recent panelbase poll)
Strocky said:
It wouldn't be illegal to hold a referendum without a S30 order, however it would only have advisory status.
That's called an opinion poll.Strocky said:
(like that small Brexit Referendum)
Wrong. The difference is legislative power meaning that public funds can be used to conduct the poll, hence the term referendum.Your error is exactly the same one that is leading to some Catalans facing jail time.
Edited by Evercross on Wednesday 13th March 11:40
Edinburger said:
You're not voting for an independent Scotland with the SNP at the helm. The question is: would you now like to see Scotland as an independent country?
We've discussed this before but the likelihood is that the SNP would cease to exist or alter dramatically if Scotland is ever an independent country.
Of course you would be voting for Scotland with the SNP at the helm, there is no way any politician would take their snouts out of the trough unless they are forced to. The likelihood is they would cling to power as long as they possibly could.We've discussed this before but the likelihood is that the SNP would cease to exist or alter dramatically if Scotland is ever an independent country.
The SNP have spent the last ten years showing they are utterly incapable of running Scotland and have done nothing except create hatred and division. Why would anyone want to see Scotland as an independent country? I have yet to see any argument as to how it would be a better place by being independent, other than some nonsense about getting the Government that we voted for. And if this lot, in Holyrood now, is what we voted for then God help us.
Why would anyone, who wasn't a haggis short of a burns supper, vote for even more disruption, massive austerity and the creation of barriers between friends and families? I am utterly sick and tired of this utter s
t propagated by nationalists that somehow they care about Scotland, all they care about is their own narrow political viewpoint.Evercross said:
Oh, hang on. I get it - Edinburger the indytroll is back and fully operational.
Unionist maths 101, 32 is a bigger number than all the rest of the other options ergo another hammer blow to the NatsEdited by Evercross on Wednesday 13th March 10:44
It's quite a feat, dispelling logic in the name of political idealogy
Survation said:
The Survation poll for the Scottish Daily Mail comes as the SNP’s Ian Blackford bids to persuade Westminster to give the Scottish Parliament the power to hold another referendum.
The poll of just over 1,000 Scottish adults presented respondents with a series of statements and asked ‘which of the following best summarises your view on the timing of another independence referendum?’
32% - ‘there should never be another Scottish independence referendum’
22% - ‘there should be another referendum within two years of the UK leaving the European Union.’
10% - ‘there should be a referendum within 2-5 years’
21% - there should be another referendum at some stage but not for at least another ten years’.
8% - Undecided
7% - Should take place between five and ten years
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-1-in-3-scots-say-there-should-never-be-a-second-independence-referendum-1-4887786The poll of just over 1,000 Scottish adults presented respondents with a series of statements and asked ‘which of the following best summarises your view on the timing of another independence referendum?’
32% - ‘there should never be another Scottish independence referendum’
22% - ‘there should be another referendum within two years of the UK leaving the European Union.’
10% - ‘there should be a referendum within 2-5 years’
21% - there should be another referendum at some stage but not for at least another ten years’.
8% - Undecided
7% - Should take place between five and ten years
Alpacaman said:
Of course you would be voting for Scotland with the SNP at the helm, there is no way any politician would take their snouts out of the trough unless they are forced to. The likelihood is they would cling to power as long as they possibly could.
The SNP have spent the last ten years showing they are utterly incapable of running Scotland and have done nothing except create hatred and division. Why would anyone want to see Scotland as an independent country? I have yet to see any argument as to how it would be a better place by being independent, other than some nonsense about getting the Government that we voted for. And if this lot, in Holyrood now, is what we voted for then God help us.
Why would anyone, who wasn't a haggis short of a burns supper, vote for even more disruption, massive austerity and the creation of barriers between friends and families? I am utterly sick and tired of this utter st propagated by nationalists that somehow they care about Scotland, all they care about is their own narrow political viewpoint.
And the mask slipsThe SNP have spent the last ten years showing they are utterly incapable of running Scotland and have done nothing except create hatred and division. Why would anyone want to see Scotland as an independent country? I have yet to see any argument as to how it would be a better place by being independent, other than some nonsense about getting the Government that we voted for. And if this lot, in Holyrood now, is what we voted for then God help us.
Why would anyone, who wasn't a haggis short of a burns supper, vote for even more disruption, massive austerity and the creation of barriers between friends and families? I am utterly sick and tired of this utter s
t propagated by nationalists that somehow they care about Scotland, all they care about is their own narrow political viewpoint.Edinburger said:
You're not voting for an independent Scotland with the SNP at the helm. The question is: would you now like to see Scotland as an independent country?
We've discussed this before but the likelihood is that the SNP would cease to exist or alter dramatically if Scotland is ever an independent country.
Correct me if I’m wrong....We've discussed this before but the likelihood is that the SNP would cease to exist or alter dramatically if Scotland is ever an independent country.
But I never mentioned a political party.
I said the Scottish government.
One party doesn’t equal the government as a whole.
So. The Scottish government haven’t proved to me that they can run the country to a standard I feel acceptable.
A.J.M said:
Correct me if I’m wrong....
But I never mentioned a political party.
I said the Scottish government.
One party doesn’t equal the government as a whole.
So. The Scottish government haven’t proved to me that they can run the country to a standard I feel acceptable.
Do you have a metric for your standards?But I never mentioned a political party.
I said the Scottish government.
One party doesn’t equal the government as a whole.
So. The Scottish government haven’t proved to me that they can run the country to a standard I feel acceptable.
A.J.M said:
Edinburger said:
You're not voting for an independent Scotland with the SNP at the helm. The question is: would you now like to see Scotland as an independent country?
We've discussed this before but the likelihood is that the SNP would cease to exist or alter dramatically if Scotland is ever an independent country.
Correct me if I’m wrong....We've discussed this before but the likelihood is that the SNP would cease to exist or alter dramatically if Scotland is ever an independent country.
But I never mentioned a political party.
I said the Scottish government.
One party doesn’t equal the government as a whole.
So. The Scottish government haven’t proved to me that they can run the country to a standard I feel acceptable.
Strocky said:
And the mask slips
Yes that's right I hate Scotland and Scottish people, that's why I chose to live here. Really is that the best you have got? Have you ever come up with anything substantive as to why Scotland would be better off independent? Have you ever made any useful contribution to the debate? All you seem able to do is quote wings over the west country, and try and appear morally superior to the rest of us, and it gets boring really quickly. Strocky said:
Survation said:
The Survation poll for the Scottish Daily Mail comes as the SNP’s Ian Blackford bids to persuade Westminster to give the Scottish Parliament the power to hold another referendum.
The poll of just over 1,000 Scottish adults presented respondents with a series of statements and asked ‘which of the following best summarises your view on the timing of another independence referendum?’
32% - ‘there should never be another Scottish independence referendum’
22% - ‘there should be another referendum within two years of the UK leaving the European Union.’
10% - ‘there should be a referendum within 2-5 years’
21% - there should be another referendum at some stage but not for at least another ten years’.
8% - Undecided
7% - Should take place between five and ten years
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-1-in-3-scots-say-there-should-never-be-a-second-independence-referendum-1-4887786The poll of just over 1,000 Scottish adults presented respondents with a series of statements and asked ‘which of the following best summarises your view on the timing of another independence referendum?’
32% - ‘there should never be another Scottish independence referendum’
22% - ‘there should be another referendum within two years of the UK leaving the European Union.’
10% - ‘there should be a referendum within 2-5 years’
21% - there should be another referendum at some stage but not for at least another ten years’.
8% - Undecided
7% - Should take place between five and ten years
Edinburger said:
We all know what you were inferring.
Implying.
As I don't trust papers in any way, let us see what result we get from a poll on here.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
TheRainMaker said:
As I don't trust papers in any way, let us see what result we get from a poll on here.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Ach the newspaper poll was just a wee joke at one of our esteemed multi's (and the ET headline)https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Online voting polls can easily be manipulated and isn't representative of a proper opinion poll which uses representative sampling when pooling respondents
Given the demographic on here, you'll get the answer you want
TheRainMaker said:
As I don't trust papers in any way, let us see what result we get from a poll on here.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Do we really need a separate thread? It's a bit pointless even asking that question on PH. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
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