Christian Bakery vs Queerspace

[Corpulent Tosser]

vetrof said:

It's not often PH generates so much support for 'sky-fairy' followers.

I can't speak for others but in my case it is not about religion or the bakery owners beliefs, though no doubt it was to him, for me it is about the right of a business owner to decide what he/she wants to make, what service they wish to provide.

My understanding of the case is that an employee took the order but the owner subsequently decided he didn't want to accept the order so offered a refund.

[Dr Jekyll]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Ahh yes. Poor old white middle class male, they get such a rough ride in this country. They hold none of the positions of power, none of the top jobs. Something should be done to redress the balance!

I'm an old white middle class male and I have no power nor any top jobs.

[Hackney]

If only they'd said, "sorry, we don't print political slogans on our cakes"

[Jinx]

Corpulent Tosser said:

I can't speak for others but in my case it is not about religion or the bakery owners beliefs, though no doubt it was to him, for me it is about the right of a business owner to decide what he/she wants to make, what service they wish to provide.

My understanding of the case is that an employee took the order but the owner subsequently decided he didn't want to accept the order so offered a refund.

Should have phrased the refusal under we don't put political statements on our cakes - and offer to leave a blank area where the customer can put what they want.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Hackney said:

If only they'd said, "sorry, we don't print political slogans on our cakes"

Absolutely right. Providing no one could show they'd previously done so for campaigns they were happy to support!

[grumbledoak]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Ahh yes. Poor old white middle class male, they get such a rough ride in this country. They hold none of the positions of power, none of the top jobs. Something should be done to redress the balance!

I admit that white males seem to mostly have the top jobs, but they don't come anywhere in the Minority Rights Grand National. I do disagree with the "something must be done" mentality, specifically the "something" taken as "anything" part. The result of these crap attempts at thinking has been an easily predictable and idiotic failure - no-one wants to hire a woman but no-one will publicly admit why, and now bakers will have to think twice before giving the reasons for refusing a custom order. Islam gallops over the line, though, way ahead of the rights of vulnerable young girls not to be gang raped for decades.

And I am the one?

[TwigtheWonderkid]

grumbledoak said:

and now bakers will have to think twice before giving the reasons for refusing a custom order.

Or they could just go mad and carry out the order. You know, treat everyone equally, whether or not they like or approve of the person and/or their views.

I have a few customers I dislike intensely, but their money is as good as anyone else's!

[TwigtheWonderkid]

grumbledoak said:

Islam gallops over the line, though, way ahead of the rights of vulnerable young girls not to be gang raped for decades.

What legislation is that?

[grumbledoak]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

What legislation is that?

Remember the "crap attempts at thinking" I mentioned? This is a good example. Reality is quite spectacularly indifferent to wordplay.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

grumbledoak said:

Remember the "crap attempts at thinking" I mentioned? This is a good example. Reality is quite spectacularly indifferent to wordplay.

You seem to be living in a parallel universe, one devoid of any grip on reality, that exists only in the small gaps between the pages of the Daily Mail.

[Zigster]

Oakey said:

I was surprised when I saw them on the news that they were a young couple, I expected them to be old bigots.

What would be hilarious is if they're now forced to make a gayke with Bert and Ernie on it, and are then promptly sued for copyright infringement.

I think the couple shown on the news was the son (and his wife) of the bakery owners. From the picture in the Metro this morning, the young wife is pretty hot - just a shame about the religious fruitcakery.

[Thorodin]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Or they could just go mad and carry out the order. You know, treat everyone equally, whether or not they like or approve of the person and/or their views.

I have a few customers I dislike intensely, but their money is as good as anyone else's!

If I may say, that's ridiculous! It's also, I suspect, an argument for it's own sake!
No matter what you or the 'law' says, equality seldom means equal.

There is and always should be the option of personal responsibility to obey one's conscience. You appear to be saying in your last sentence all that matters to you is the commercial aspect that your customers present to your business and that you will do business with anyone that can pay. To hell with anything to do with personal freedom or ethics. That may be acceptable to you, but those personal freedoms are generally sincerely felt and are being trodden down by dogma-led minorities - much the same as the historic refusal to investigate sex abuse rings. Freedom is freedom to follow your conscience. The settled law in all this, as in so many cases, acts against that and is another example of 'hurt feelings' being paramount. Pretty soon this road diverges into 'I don't like this fellow, I think I'll cross over the road' and yet more opportunities for legal wrangling from which the only beneficiaries are the legal profession.

[JonRB]

Thorodin said:

If I may say, that's ridiculous! It's also, I suspect, an argument for it's own sake!
No matter what you or the 'law' says, equality seldom means equal.

There is and always should be the option of personal responsibility to obey one's conscience. You appear to be saying in your last sentence all that matters to you is the commercial aspect that your customers present to your business and that you will do business with anyone that can pay. To hell with anything to do with personal freedom or ethics. That may be acceptable to you, but those personal freedoms are generally sincerely felt and are being trodden down by dogma-led minorities - much the same as the historic refusal to investigate sex abuse rings. Freedom is freedom to follow your conscience. The settled law in all this, as in so many cases, acts against that and is another example of 'hurt feelings' being paramount. Pretty soon this road diverges into 'I don't like this fellow, I think I'll cross over the road' and yet more opportunities for legal wrangling from which the only beneficiaries are the legal profession.

And yet most people can agree that sexism, racism, homophobia and transphobia are all things that are undesirable in business, especially the workplace. The fact that we even need legislation to enforce equality and prevent discrimination is a sad reflection on society, but that's how it is.

If people have the kind of freedom you're suggesting then we'll be back to B&B's with a sign in the window saying "No dogs, Blacks or Irish".

A balance needs to be struck, of course. But in the case of the bakery they could have have saved themselves a whole world of shiat if they had simply said "we don't do political slogans".

[George111]

JonRB said:

Thorodin said:

If I may say, that's ridiculous! It's also, I suspect, an argument for it's own sake!
No matter what you or the 'law' says, equality seldom means equal.

There is and always should be the option of personal responsibility to obey one's conscience. You appear to be saying in your last sentence all that matters to you is the commercial aspect that your customers present to your business and that you will do business with anyone that can pay. To hell with anything to do with personal freedom or ethics. That may be acceptable to you, but those personal freedoms are generally sincerely felt and are being trodden down by dogma-led minorities - much the same as the historic refusal to investigate sex abuse rings. Freedom is freedom to follow your conscience. The settled law in all this, as in so many cases, acts against that and is another example of 'hurt feelings' being paramount. Pretty soon this road diverges into 'I don't like this fellow, I think I'll cross over the road' and yet more opportunities for legal wrangling from which the only beneficiaries are the legal profession.

And yet most people can agree that sexism, racism, homophobia and transphobia are all things that are undesirable in business, especially the workplace. The fact that we even need legislation to enforce equality and prevent discrimination is a sad reflection on society, but that's how it is.

If people have the kind of freedom you're suggesting then we'll be back to B&B's with a sign in the window saying "No dogs, Blacks or Irish".

A balance needs to be struck, of course. But in the case of the bakery they could have have saved themselves a whole world of shiat if they had simply said "we don't do political slogans".

No, the bakers didn't want to be drawn into (used in) a political debate . . . they would be perfectly happy to bake an ordinary cake for a gay couple, just not none that made them part of the pro gay marriage campaign. They got caught in this case by poor choice of words in their refusal. They were not discriminating against gay people, just against being a pawn in a political struggle.

They would probably not want their business drawn into any number of other issues, political or otherwise. I have the right and will use the right to not support something I don't believe in - why shouldn't they ? Or do your rights trump theirs ?

[JonRB]

George111 said:

No, the bakers didn't want to be drawn into (used in) a political debate . . . they would be perfectly happy to bake an ordinary cake for a gay couple, just not none that made them part of the pro gay marriage campaign. They got caught in this case by poor choice of words in their refusal. They were not discriminating against gay people, just against being a pawn in a political struggle.

They would probably not want their business drawn into any number of other issues, political or otherwise. I have the right and will use the right to not support something I don't believe in - why shouldn't they ? Or do your rights trump theirs ?

I'm not sure that I have ever once said that they do?

In fact, if you actually read some of my posts rather than trying to put words into my mouth, you'll see that I'm actually broadly in agreement with you - they got embroiled in this due to a very poor choice of words in their refusal.

A business can decline work for any number of perfectly valid reasons. It's just that it's usually advisable to choose one that is legal.

[motco]

If they had refused the order under the circumstances where it had been placed by a heterosexual friend on behalf of the homosexual parties, could they have been prosecuted for discriminating against someone on the grounds of their sexuality?

[cayman-black]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

You are right. These fkers are vindictive.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

What if you went for a job in that pub and were told "we don't employ Asians." Would your attitude be as relaxed. At what point do you think people should take a stand against prejudice?

[Einion Yrth]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

What if you went for a job in that pub and were told "we don't employ Asians." Would your attitude be as relaxed. At what point do you think people should take a stand against prejudice?

If he were faced by people prejudiced against asians he wouldn't get the job, they'd just give a different reason.

[JonRB]

Einion Yrth said:

If he were faced by people prejudiced against asians he wouldn't get the job, they'd just give a different reason.

And so we return to the naievety of the bakers' reason for declining the order.