Refugees / Asylum seekers crossing the channel
Discussion
mrporsche said:
popegregory said:
FYI, living standards are horrendous in the other countries you speak of because of (and not limited to) us stealing their resources (sorry, “lending our technologies”), selling them bombs (sorry, “peacekeeping”), depressing their wages (sorry, “investing in them”), and saddling them with debts that can’t possibly be repaid (sorry, “providing aid”).
You may not be aware of this but the world isn’t quite the level playing field you seem to think and it’s not purely your own individual brilliance which separates you from an Eritrean kid on a leaky dinghy clutching his iPhone 3.
Of course they are and there are countries with a higher standard of living than ours. Which country would you want to pitch as the level you are bringing everybody, up to ?You may not be aware of this but the world isn’t quite the level playing field you seem to think and it’s not purely your own individual brilliance which separates you from an Eritrean kid on a leaky dinghy clutching his iPhone 3.
I cant see that it is up to us increase living standards in other countries.
Edited by popegregory on Thursday 11th February 16:39
popegregory said:
By the same token if the guy across the road robbed all your stuff and wrecked your house you’d accept your lot, wish them all the best and consider it your personal responsibility to sort yourself out?
If i answer your question could you answer mine ?Edited by popegregory on Thursday 11th February 16:39
That is a poor comparison, and not what has happened.
The countries you are no doubt trying to allude to were a mess before hand. We have not robbed them and did not wreck their country, but that idea removes all responsibility for them making any governance decisions of their own.
Going to try and sneak into the house of the individual that damaged and robbed it would not be the first idea that came to mind, i am surprised that would be anybodies first idea. As there individual is now moved to a different city i would rebuild my life.
The concept of not getting involved in other countries affairs does appear to change regularly.
mrporsche said:
popegregory said:
By the same token if the guy across the road robbed all your stuff and wrecked your house you’d accept your lot, wish them all the best and consider it your personal responsibility to sort yourself out?
If i answer your question could you answer mine ?Edited by popegregory on Thursday 11th February 16:39
That is a poor comparison, and not what has happened.
The countries you are no doubt trying to allude to were a mess before hand. We have not robbed them and did not wreck their country, but that idea removes all responsibility for them making any governance decisions of their own.
Going to try and sneak into the house of the individual that damaged and robbed it would not be the first idea that came to mind, i am surprised that would be anybodies first idea. As there individual is now moved to a different city i would rebuild my life.
The concept of not getting involved in other countries affairs does appear to change regularly.
Secondly, yes, we have robbed them. We’ve spent the last 150 years traipsing all over the world taking whatever we wanted and we’re still doing it now. You are correct that they have significant leadership failings of their own but these have been very much influenced and amplified by the actions of the developed world looking after their own interests.
Finally, it is what has happened and in our globalised and connected world, the guys the other side of the street can easily look over at us metaphorically watching their telly and wearing their clothes. All they want is to come and join in.
popegregory said:
With respect, your point of saying that there were countries with a higher standard of living than us was very silly. We are firmly at the worlds top table and any development indicator that puts (usually) Germany, Japan or Scandinavia ahead of us would not be felt by citizens in a meaningful way. To put it simply, the difference in quality of life between Sudan and here is not the same as the difference between here and Germany. Have you ever used the phrase “white lives matter” per chance?
Secondly, yes, we have robbed them. We’ve spent the last 150 years traipsing all over the world taking whatever we wanted and we’re still doing it now. You are correct that they have significant leadership failings of their own but these have been very much influenced and amplified by the actions of the developed world looking after their own interests.
Finally, it is what has happened and in our globalised and connected world, the guys the other side of the street can easily look over at us metaphorically watching their telly and wearing their clothes. All they want is to come and join in.
So to what level would you wish to raise these poor countries to ?Secondly, yes, we have robbed them. We’ve spent the last 150 years traipsing all over the world taking whatever we wanted and we’re still doing it now. You are correct that they have significant leadership failings of their own but these have been very much influenced and amplified by the actions of the developed world looking after their own interests.
Finally, it is what has happened and in our globalised and connected world, the guys the other side of the street can easily look over at us metaphorically watching their telly and wearing their clothes. All they want is to come and join in.
The stronger countries have been invading the weaker ones since time began. On the latest cycle it is some western countries that find themselves on top. It doesn’t mean we have some obligation to sort out all their issues
That said the amount of money poured into Africa is huge, and yet they don’t appear to be any further forward.
Since the 60’s Africa has had $866 billion according to oecd ,, other reports suggest $133billion a year.
Lots argue that we should stop giving aid and that the countries have become lazy and dependent upon it.
When the African peasant was poor he had no idea of Europe and was reasonably happy, once he starts to become richer and more educated he sees Europe as a land of riches and easy money.
The poor Africans never make the trip to Europe
Since the 60’s Africa has had $866 billion according to oecd ,, other reports suggest $133billion a year.
Lots argue that we should stop giving aid and that the countries have become lazy and dependent upon it.
When the African peasant was poor he had no idea of Europe and was reasonably happy, once he starts to become richer and more educated he sees Europe as a land of riches and easy money.
The poor Africans never make the trip to Europe
mrporsche said:
That said the amount of money poured into Africa is huge, and yet they don’t appear to be any further forward.
Since the 60’s Africa has had $866 billion according to oecd ,, other reports suggest $133billion a year.
Lots argue that we should stop giving aid and that the countries have become lazy and dependent upon it.
When the African peasant was poor he had no idea of Europe and was reasonably happy, once he starts to become richer and more educated he sees Europe as a land of riches and easy money.
The poor Africans never make the trip to Europe
That’s because it’s stolen by a few politicians.Since the 60’s Africa has had $866 billion according to oecd ,, other reports suggest $133billion a year.
Lots argue that we should stop giving aid and that the countries have become lazy and dependent upon it.
When the African peasant was poor he had no idea of Europe and was reasonably happy, once he starts to become richer and more educated he sees Europe as a land of riches and easy money.
The poor Africans never make the trip to Europe
mrporsche said:
That said the amount of money poured into Africa is huge, and yet they don’t appear to be any further forward.
Since the 60’s Africa has had $866 billion according to oecd ,, other reports suggest $133billion a year.
Lots argue that we should stop giving aid and that the countries have become lazy and dependent upon it.
When the African peasant was poor he had no idea of Europe and was reasonably happy, once he starts to become richer and more educated he sees Europe as a land of riches and easy money.
The poor Africans never make the trip to Europe
There's still an awful lot of wrong with all of this. Essentially, yes, money goes in. But more comes back out again. Since the 60’s Africa has had $866 billion according to oecd ,, other reports suggest $133billion a year.
Lots argue that we should stop giving aid and that the countries have become lazy and dependent upon it.
When the African peasant was poor he had no idea of Europe and was reasonably happy, once he starts to become richer and more educated he sees Europe as a land of riches and easy money.
The poor Africans never make the trip to Europe
Guardian - "More wealth leaves Africa every year than enters it – by more than $40bn (£31bn) – according to research that challenges “misleading” perceptions of foreign aid."
To develop this point...
Al Jazeera - "Based on a set of new figures, it finds that sub-Saharan Africa is a net creditor to the rest of the world to the tune of more than $41bn. Sure, there’s money going in: around $161bn a year in the form of loans, remittances (those working outside Africa and sending money back home), and aid. But there’s also $203bn leaving the continent. Some of this is direct, such as $68bn in mainly dodged taxes. Essentially multinational corporations “steal” much of this – legally – by pretending they are really generating their wealth in tax havens. These so-called “illicit financial flows” amount to around 6.1 percent of the continent’s entire gross domestic product (GDP) – or three times what Africa receives in aid. Then there’s the $30bn that these corporations “repatriate” – profits they make in Africa but send back to their home country, or elsewhere, to enjoy their wealth. The City of London is awash with profits extracted from the land and labour of Africa. There are also more indirect means by which we pull wealth out of Africa. Today’s report estimates that $29bn a year is being stolen from Africa in illegal logging, fishing and trade in wildlife. $36bn is owed to Africa as a result of the damage that climate change will cause to their societies and economies as they are unable to use fossil fuels to develop in the way that Europe did."
Also your other idea about there being some sort of cycle - no there isn't. This isn't football and in 40 years we're not going to remember the US and Europe leading the world in the same way as we now remember Wolves were once the biggest team in Europe.
Unfortunately though (and I do apologise as it was a very fair question given the nature of my replies) I can't answer your question about what level I want them raised to as we then have to go through a huge hypothetical scenario where we even out the world and iPhones now cost upwards of $30,000. I'm simply pointing out that our incredible level of taken-for-granted luxury in this country depends on trampling the developing world something obscene and am therefore only really arguing at those who refuse to see why these guys are doing it (and primarily that Unknown User fellow who seems to think it "laughable" that the issues in the developing world are our responsibility when, yes, they very clearly are).
mrporsche said:
That said the amount of money poured into Africa is huge, and yet they don’t appear to be any further forward.
Since the 60’s Africa has had $866 billion according to oecd ,, other reports suggest $133billion a year.
Lots argue that we should stop giving aid and that the countries have become lazy and dependent upon it.
When the African peasant was poor he had no idea of Europe and was reasonably happy, once he starts to become richer and more educated he sees Europe as a land of riches and easy money.
The poor Africans never make the trip to Europe
Africa has had a tremendous amount of both human and natural resources taken from it by force, within only the last hundred years or so. The legacy of that still goes on to the present day.Since the 60’s Africa has had $866 billion according to oecd ,, other reports suggest $133billion a year.
Lots argue that we should stop giving aid and that the countries have become lazy and dependent upon it.
When the African peasant was poor he had no idea of Europe and was reasonably happy, once he starts to become richer and more educated he sees Europe as a land of riches and easy money.
The poor Africans never make the trip to Europe
MrMan001 said:
Africa has had a tremendous amount of both human and natural resources taken from it by force, within only the last hundred years or so. The legacy of that still goes on to the present day.
I have read many times about the Chinese investing heavily in Africa. Quite some achievement considering how quickly they are building their own country up. I hope the western governments are wise to what is going on.popegregory said:
There's still an awful lot of wrong with all of this. Essentially, yes, money goes in. But more comes back out again.
Guardian - "More wealth leaves Africa every year than enters it – by more than $40bn (£31bn) – according to research that challenges “misleading” perceptions of foreign aid."
To develop this point...
Al Jazeera - "Based on a set of new figures, it finds that sub-Saharan Africa is a net creditor to the rest of the world to the tune of more than $41bn. Sure, there’s money going in: around $161bn a year in the form of loans, remittances (those working outside Africa and sending money back home), and aid. But there’s also $203bn leaving the continent. Some of this is direct, such as $68bn in mainly dodged taxes. Essentially multinational corporations “steal” much of this – legally – by pretending they are really generating their wealth in tax havens. These so-called “illicit financial flows” amount to around 6.1 percent of the continent’s entire gross domestic product (GDP) – or three times what Africa receives in aid. Then there’s the $30bn that these corporations “repatriate” – profits they make in Africa but send back to their home country, or elsewhere, to enjoy their wealth. The City of London is awash with profits extracted from the land and labour of Africa. There are also more indirect means by which we pull wealth out of Africa. Today’s report estimates that $29bn a year is being stolen from Africa in illegal logging, fishing and trade in wildlife. $36bn is owed to Africa as a result of the damage that climate change will cause to their societies and economies as they are unable to use fossil fuels to develop in the way that Europe did."
Also your other idea about there being some sort of cycle - no there isn't. This isn't football and in 40 years we're not going to remember the US and Europe leading the world in the same way as we now remember Wolves were once the biggest team in Europe.
Unfortunately though (and I do apologise as it was a very fair question given the nature of my replies) I can't answer your question about what level I want them raised to as we then have to go through a huge hypothetical scenario where we even out the world and iPhones now cost upwards of $30,000. I'm simply pointing out that our incredible level of taken-for-granted luxury in this country depends on trampling the developing world something obscene and am therefore only really arguing at those who refuse to see why these guys are doing it (and primarily that Unknown User fellow who seems to think it "laughable" that the issues in the developing world are our responsibility when, yes, they very clearly are).
Good post.Guardian - "More wealth leaves Africa every year than enters it – by more than $40bn (£31bn) – according to research that challenges “misleading” perceptions of foreign aid."
To develop this point...
Al Jazeera - "Based on a set of new figures, it finds that sub-Saharan Africa is a net creditor to the rest of the world to the tune of more than $41bn. Sure, there’s money going in: around $161bn a year in the form of loans, remittances (those working outside Africa and sending money back home), and aid. But there’s also $203bn leaving the continent. Some of this is direct, such as $68bn in mainly dodged taxes. Essentially multinational corporations “steal” much of this – legally – by pretending they are really generating their wealth in tax havens. These so-called “illicit financial flows” amount to around 6.1 percent of the continent’s entire gross domestic product (GDP) – or three times what Africa receives in aid. Then there’s the $30bn that these corporations “repatriate” – profits they make in Africa but send back to their home country, or elsewhere, to enjoy their wealth. The City of London is awash with profits extracted from the land and labour of Africa. There are also more indirect means by which we pull wealth out of Africa. Today’s report estimates that $29bn a year is being stolen from Africa in illegal logging, fishing and trade in wildlife. $36bn is owed to Africa as a result of the damage that climate change will cause to their societies and economies as they are unable to use fossil fuels to develop in the way that Europe did."
Also your other idea about there being some sort of cycle - no there isn't. This isn't football and in 40 years we're not going to remember the US and Europe leading the world in the same way as we now remember Wolves were once the biggest team in Europe.
Unfortunately though (and I do apologise as it was a very fair question given the nature of my replies) I can't answer your question about what level I want them raised to as we then have to go through a huge hypothetical scenario where we even out the world and iPhones now cost upwards of $30,000. I'm simply pointing out that our incredible level of taken-for-granted luxury in this country depends on trampling the developing world something obscene and am therefore only really arguing at those who refuse to see why these guys are doing it (and primarily that Unknown User fellow who seems to think it "laughable" that the issues in the developing world are our responsibility when, yes, they very clearly are).
Unknown_User said:
markcoznottz said:
Tom Logan said:
You're all feeding the troll.
Is he the previous poster mx5 something or other? However, I am getting sick of not being able to keep track of some of the more tedious posters, because the sealioning approach wastes so much time; you reply, argue patiently and politely and get an absolute zero response.
Debate is great, but if people are having to change their usernames, principally to either avoid being ignored or bans, then it's a problem the mods need to get serious with.
Unknown_User said:
markcoznottz said:
Tom Logan said:
You're all feeding the troll.
Is he the previous poster mx5 something or other? 
He was called Piha
Unknown_User said:
popegregory said:
There's still an awful lot of wrong with all of this. Essentially, yes, money goes in. But more comes back out again.
Guardian - "More wealth leaves Africa every year than enters it – by more than $40bn (£31bn) – according to research that challenges “misleading” perceptions of foreign aid."
To develop this point...
Al Jazeera - "Based on a set of new figures, it finds that sub-Saharan Africa is a net creditor to the rest of the world to the tune of more than $41bn. Sure, there’s money going in: around $161bn a year in the form of loans, remittances (those working outside Africa and sending money back home), and aid. But there’s also $203bn leaving the continent. Some of this is direct, such as $68bn in mainly dodged taxes. Essentially multinational corporations “steal” much of this – legally – by pretending they are really generating their wealth in tax havens. These so-called “illicit financial flows” amount to around 6.1 percent of the continent’s entire gross domestic product (GDP) – or three times what Africa receives in aid. Then there’s the $30bn that these corporations “repatriate” – profits they make in Africa but send back to their home country, or elsewhere, to enjoy their wealth. The City of London is awash with profits extracted from the land and labour of Africa. There are also more indirect means by which we pull wealth out of Africa. Today’s report estimates that $29bn a year is being stolen from Africa in illegal logging, fishing and trade in wildlife. $36bn is owed to Africa as a result of the damage that climate change will cause to their societies and economies as they are unable to use fossil fuels to develop in the way that Europe did."
Also your other idea about there being some sort of cycle - no there isn't. This isn't football and in 40 years we're not going to remember the US and Europe leading the world in the same way as we now remember Wolves were once the biggest team in Europe.
Unfortunately though (and I do apologise as it was a very fair question given the nature of my replies) I can't answer your question about what level I want them raised to as we then have to go through a huge hypothetical scenario where we even out the world and iPhones now cost upwards of $30,000. I'm simply pointing out that our incredible level of taken-for-granted luxury in this country depends on trampling the developing world something obscene and am therefore only really arguing at those who refuse to see why these guys are doing it (and primarily that Unknown User fellow who seems to think it "laughable" that the issues in the developing world are our responsibility when, yes, they very clearly are).
Good post.Guardian - "More wealth leaves Africa every year than enters it – by more than $40bn (£31bn) – according to research that challenges “misleading” perceptions of foreign aid."
To develop this point...
Al Jazeera - "Based on a set of new figures, it finds that sub-Saharan Africa is a net creditor to the rest of the world to the tune of more than $41bn. Sure, there’s money going in: around $161bn a year in the form of loans, remittances (those working outside Africa and sending money back home), and aid. But there’s also $203bn leaving the continent. Some of this is direct, such as $68bn in mainly dodged taxes. Essentially multinational corporations “steal” much of this – legally – by pretending they are really generating their wealth in tax havens. These so-called “illicit financial flows” amount to around 6.1 percent of the continent’s entire gross domestic product (GDP) – or three times what Africa receives in aid. Then there’s the $30bn that these corporations “repatriate” – profits they make in Africa but send back to their home country, or elsewhere, to enjoy their wealth. The City of London is awash with profits extracted from the land and labour of Africa. There are also more indirect means by which we pull wealth out of Africa. Today’s report estimates that $29bn a year is being stolen from Africa in illegal logging, fishing and trade in wildlife. $36bn is owed to Africa as a result of the damage that climate change will cause to their societies and economies as they are unable to use fossil fuels to develop in the way that Europe did."
Also your other idea about there being some sort of cycle - no there isn't. This isn't football and in 40 years we're not going to remember the US and Europe leading the world in the same way as we now remember Wolves were once the biggest team in Europe.
Unfortunately though (and I do apologise as it was a very fair question given the nature of my replies) I can't answer your question about what level I want them raised to as we then have to go through a huge hypothetical scenario where we even out the world and iPhones now cost upwards of $30,000. I'm simply pointing out that our incredible level of taken-for-granted luxury in this country depends on trampling the developing world something obscene and am therefore only really arguing at those who refuse to see why these guys are doing it (and primarily that Unknown User fellow who seems to think it "laughable" that the issues in the developing world are our responsibility when, yes, they very clearly are).
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