First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

[Liokault]

amusingduck said:

Well, does it not slightly undermine the concept of 'trans women ARE women'?

Fundamentally, trans “women” are not women.

[otolith]

chrispmartha said:

Well, what if a Transwomen went through male puberty was 5 foot 5 and a women who was born a woman didn't go through male puberty was 6 foot, who's got the height advantage?

As is ay I think it's a daft metric to use for the argument either way. I'll leave it at that.

I read it as an example of a physical difference caused by biological sex which cannot be reversed by hormone treatment. It’s not a bad example, because like many other factors there is overlap between the male and female populations. Any sporting advantage is likely to be multifactorial, not just down to one difference.

[donkmeister]

A transwoman will face struggles; before you even consider the people who think the contents of your pants is somehow their business, something as simple as buying clothes and shoes will automatically put most into the realms of specialist retailers. But there is no right to increase the struggles of others (in this case, female athletes).

In life we make choices. I really can't imagine anyone would go through the difficult and painful process of gender reassignment just to increase their chances of a medal, however if being genetically male gives them an unfair advantage then perhaps that sport should be regarded as one of the sacrifices of their transition.

[Randy Winkman]

Iwantafusca said:

As has been mentioned, the simple solution is a trans sports competition. Then all the transwomen and transmen can compete fairly and successfully against each other.

Tv channels will clamour to host it ( maybe save channel 4?) , and the public will be queuing up to watch.

I think it would be like GB News. People will tune in at the start because it will be a bit of a novelty and then it would fall flat. What would it offer that mainstream male/female sport wouldn't?

[pquinn]

Still amazing how it's consistently a bunch of previous unsuccessful sports people who are so keen to hold onto a sports career.

If they knew they would be banned from competing would they prioritise their transition or their sport?

Surely it would be a minor sacrifice compared to the general benefit they got from reassignment?

[Gecko1978]

MC Bodge said:

I think that it needs to be said that they are not *fully* the same as "women", but they can be treated in almost all areas of life as women, with respect and dignity.

Nowadays, men and women are mostly treated alike anyway.

Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 24th June 09:39

I do appreciate you have tried hard to use sensitive language here but it seems the messgae is not getting across. Trans Women are not women they are trans end of. Day to day they can act and be afforded the same respct and courtesy as women, but where the difference represents an issue they must accept they are not women.

Sport, medical treatment, prisons I can't think of any other niche cases I am sure there will be others. What I am not saying is they are men, they are different

[anonymous-user]

MC Bodge said:

I think that it needs to be said that they are not *fully* the same as "women", but they can be treated in almost all areas of life as women, with respect and dignity.

Nowadays, men and women are mostly treated alike anyway.

Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 24th June 09:39

Transwomen are transwomen is the best descriptor imo.

[Wiltshire Lad]

pquinn said:

Still amazing how it's consistently a bunch of previous unsuccessful sports people who are so keen to hold onto a sports career.

If they knew they would be banned from competing would they prioritise their transition or their sport?

Surely it would be a minor sacrifice compared to the general benefit they got from reassignment?

I really cannot believe anyone would undergo transition for sporting success - however the fact remains than an average male athlete could become a world class competitor so it a sacrifice they should have to accept. 20 years of physical development as a male is always going to give a huge advantage,

[MC Bodge]

Wiltshire Lad said:

I really cannot believe anyone would undergo transition for sporting success

No. I doubt that many people would believe that.

It is difficult for me, of course, as a man who has never considered that I wasn't a man and should actually be a woman, to comprehend what would prompt somebody to undergo any sort of gender transition therapy. It must be a source of a lot of anguish for those who do feel that way.

I suspect, though, that at my age (the same age as the NZ weightlifter), and if I was good enough at weightlifting, I would not feel justified in entering the Olympics to compete against younger women in their prime at the top of their category.

Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 24th June 11:17

[SlimJim16v]

MC Bodge said:

I suspect, though, that at my age (the same age as the NZ weightlifter), and if I was good enough at weightlifting, I would not feel justified in entering the Olympics to compete against younger women in their prime at the top of their category.

A very good point that's been overlooked.

[otolith]

I don't believe that anyone would transition in order to cheat. I do believe that someone who was a mediocre athlete as a man and who finds that now she's a woman she's an Olympic level athlete should think about whether choosing to compete is ethical.

[RobbieTheTruth]

chrispmartha said:

768 said:

chrispmartha said:

768 said:

chrispmartha said:

Its not really logic and reason, unless you think tall women should be banned from certain sports?

I think men should be banned from women's sport.

Height is just one attribute that differs between men and women and confers a sporting advantage for which there is no undoing.

Height is a daft metric to use for your argument though. Height differs betwen men and men.

I’m 5foot10, should a 6foot5 man be banned from playing certain sports against me.

Im not saying it supports transwomen in sports either, im saying its a daft metric to use.

It's no more daft than looking at muscle mass, strength, bone density, other attributes that differ within the sexes and such that contribute to why we ban men from women's sport. It doesn't define the difference but it's part of the picture that illustrates why men aren't allowed to compete.

This is about protecting women's sport, not short men's sport, but it could be if you really wanted - we have weight categories in boxing. Go and start a basketball league for people under 6' if you want and I'll fully support you telling tall people they can't join because they identify as being a little person.

Why would i start a league based on height, im not the one using it as a metric, which is why i said its not one that supports transwomen in sports either.

He's used a perfectly comparable reason and you flounced again.

Weight classes exist in boxing.

A heavyweight cannot 'identify' as a lightweight, it's binary.

Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Thursday 24th June 12:24

[RobbieTheTruth]

SlimJim16v said:

MC Bodge said:

I suspect, though, that at my age (the same age as the NZ weightlifter), and if I was good enough at weightlifting, I would not feel justified in entering the Olympics to compete against younger women in their prime at the top of their category.

A very good point that's been overlooked.

It is. Piers Morgan wrote an article on the whole thing, saying how ludicrous it was etc, but saying he doesn't blame Hubbard.

I do. Not solely, but Hubbard is an absolute disgrace doing this to young women who have trained all of their lives to get to the Olympics.

[chrispmartha]

RobbieTheTruth said:

He's used a perfectly comparable reason and you flounced again.

Weight classes exist in boxing.

A heavyweight cannot 'identify' as a lightweight, it's binary.

Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Thursday 24th June 12:24

Why do you keep saying people are flouncing? You just don’t like the answers given.

Do they have different height classes?

[wst]

Chrisp, the existence of natural variation within a category does not render the existence of that category invalid. A tall woman is not the same thing as a man, unless you are taking a rather regressive view of womanhood.

[SlimJim16v]

RobbieTheTruth said:

It is. Piers Morgan wrote an article on the whole thing, saying how ludicrous it was etc, but saying he doesn't blame Hubbard.

I do. Not solely, but Hubbard is an absolute disgrace doing this to young women who have trained all of their lives to get to the Olympics.

Yes, identifies as a woman, but has no respect for women. I also think it's setting back acceptance of trans women.

[PomBstard]

RobbieTheTruth said:

It is. Piers Morgan wrote an article on the whole thing, saying how ludicrous it was etc, but saying he doesn't blame Hubbard.

I do. Not solely, but Hubbard is an absolute disgrace doing this to young women who have trained all of their lives to get to the Olympics.

Agreed. Worse than Hubbard is Petrillo - Italian Paralympian who won national titles as a man, and then in 2020 started running as a woman. This year, at the age of 47, won gold medals in the Italian Paralympic Trials T12 for 100m, 200m, and 400m. Yep, the fastest Italian T12 woman for 100m is 47 years old. Sound right to you?

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

I've discussed this with my daughter, who is a classified para-athlete for swimming and track/field and a serious athlete. I asked her how she would feel about swimming or running against boys her age who wanted to be girls. She told me that wouldn't be fair as they're quicker and stronger. I also asked how she would feel if, having got to her dream point of selection to the national Paraswim squad, a man who wanted to be a girl took her place because they were quicker. I was told not to be so stupid as that obviously isn't going to happen.

So I said that this is exactly what has happened in Italy, and now in NZ.

There were cries of, "That's not fair!" and on we went. If anyone doubts the impact this can and will have on women's opportunity in sport, they need to chat with some of those that are serious about making certain grades or squads. Ask them how they'd feel about a man taking their place because they wanted to be a woman.

[RobbieTheTruth]

chrispmartha said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

He's used a perfectly comparable reason and you flounced again.

Weight classes exist in boxing.

A heavyweight cannot 'identify' as a lightweight, it's binary.

Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Thursday 24th June 12:24

Why do you keep saying people are flouncing? You just don’t like the answers given.

Do they have different height classes?

No, they have weight classes, and body mass is generally a bigger factor on strength and combat.

Is 'some women are taller than other women' seriously your argument on allowing people born male to compete in women's sport?

Of course genetics comes in to it!

Like I said earlier:

Hubbard wouldn't make the male NZ Olympic weightlifting squad because they are too old and nowhere near good enough.

Hubbard will likely medal at the Olympics in the female category, because they were born male (despite being 20 years older than the average competitor).

That's cool isn't it.

[chrispmartha]

RobbieTheTruth said:

No, they have weight classes, and body mass is generally a bigger factor on strength and combat.

Is 'some women are taller than other women' seriously your argument on allowing people born male to compete in women's sport?

Of course genetics comes in to it!

Like I said earlier:

Hubbard wouldn't make the male NZ Olympic weightlifting squad because they are too old and nowhere near good enough.

Hubbard will likely medal at the Olympics in the female category, because they were born male (despite being 20 years older than the average competitor).

That's cool isn't it.

Again you need to read what ive written not what you think ive written

“ Is 'some women are taller than other women' seriously your argument on allowing people born male to compete in women's sport?”

No and i said as much, i said its a daft metric for BOTH sides of the argument.

If the sports scientists and governing bodies decide that Trans people don’t qualify for their cosen category I would be fine with that, happy?

[silverfoxcc]

If they were to dig up this persons skeleton in 200yrs time, they will say it was a man, because of the pelvic bones