The economic consequences of Brexit (Vol 2)
Discussion
Tuna said:
James_B said:
Wayne E Edge said:
I really don't understand the Brexiteers' belligerence to us remainers.
House is on the market, so see how it goes.
A lot of it probably comes from people who voted remain trying to classify those who voted leave as racist or xenophobic bigots.House is on the market, so see how it goes.
Some people seem to want to conflate a desire not to be in political union with the rest of Europe with not liking the rest of Europe.
Half of my family are mainland Europeans. My wife is, my nieces and nephews are, and I spend a lot of the year at my home there, but I'm not keen on being in the EU.
If anything it's my friends who voted remain who are the ones who couldn't imagine living and working on the continent, as very few of them have the transferable skills, the language, or the inclination to shift countries.
I suspect most remainers are, just like a lot of leavers, just getting on with their lives whilst vaguely wondering how much things are going to change.
Pan Pan Pan said:
Tuna said:
James_B said:
Wayne E Edge said:
I really don't understand the Brexiteers' belligerence to us remainers.
House is on the market, so see how it goes.
A lot of it probably comes from people who voted remain trying to classify those who voted leave as racist or xenophobic bigots.House is on the market, so see how it goes.
Some people seem to want to conflate a desire not to be in political union with the rest of Europe with not liking the rest of Europe.
Half of my family are mainland Europeans. My wife is, my nieces and nephews are, and I spend a lot of the year at my home there, but I'm not keen on being in the EU.
If anything it's my friends who voted remain who are the ones who couldn't imagine living and working on the continent, as very few of them have the transferable skills, the language, or the inclination to shift countries.
I suspect most remainers are, just like a lot of leavers, just getting on with their lives whilst vaguely wondering how much things are going to change.
It was governments of the day that changed the EEC into the EU. Governments from across Europe, including our very own. Did we not have any elections between 1975 and now? No times when you could voice your opinion of the EU and the direction your government was taking?
jonnyb said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Tuna said:
James_B said:
Wayne E Edge said:
I really don't understand the Brexiteers' belligerence to us remainers.
House is on the market, so see how it goes.
A lot of it probably comes from people who voted remain trying to classify those who voted leave as racist or xenophobic bigots.House is on the market, so see how it goes.
Some people seem to want to conflate a desire not to be in political union with the rest of Europe with not liking the rest of Europe.
Half of my family are mainland Europeans. My wife is, my nieces and nephews are, and I spend a lot of the year at my home there, but I'm not keen on being in the EU.
If anything it's my friends who voted remain who are the ones who couldn't imagine living and working on the continent, as very few of them have the transferable skills, the language, or the inclination to shift countries.
I suspect most remainers are, just like a lot of leavers, just getting on with their lives whilst vaguely wondering how much things are going to change.
It was governments of the day that changed the EEC into the EU. Governments from across Europe, including our very own. Did we not have any elections between 1975 and now? No times when you could voice your opinion of the EU and the direction your government was taking?
Voting for whichever party might be pro, or anti EU was never much of an issue during the subsequent (to 1975) parliamentary elections. Since the majority of the people in the UK were only really concerned with getting either the tories or labour in/out of No10.
I seriously doubt that whether a party was either pro or anti EU had much effect on how people voted in the parliamentary elections since 1975, except perhaps in the latest, where for the first time in the UK a referendum on the matter was promised by Cameron.
Remember that it was the Heath government in 1973 that took the UK into the EEC without asking the people of the UK if this was what they wanted, and in 1975 the people were asked to vote in a referendum on whether or not they wanted the UK to `remain' a member of the EEC, NOT the EU, which had not even been heard of at that point in time, let alone an understanding of what being in the EU would mean for the people of the UK.
In 1975, they were also asked to make that decision on only a tiny fraction of the information on what joining the EEC would mean, compared to the information available for the 2016 referendum. This makes the decision of the 2016 referendum far more informed, and valid, than the one which allowed the UK to be sucked into the EU via the EEC, ever was.
If in 1975 the people of the UK had been told that the EEC would subsequently change itself into the EU, and would charge the UK far more for the privilege of being in the EU, than the UK would ever receive back from it, That they would seize 80% of the fish stocks in UK territorial waters but would give the UK no compensation whatsoever for this, That they would start imposing rules, that would fundamentally change the way the UK was allowed to govern itself, and would allow millions of EU nationals to come into the UK, and compete with the indigenous population for school places, jobs, housing, healthcare, and transport etc. the vote in 1975 would have been overwhelmingly for the UK to get out of the EEC as soon as possible.
the 2016 referendum has now righted an over 40 year wrong.
Pan Pan Pan said:
jonnyb said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Tuna said:
James_B said:
Wayne E Edge said:
I really don't understand the Brexiteers' belligerence to us remainers.
House is on the market, so see how it goes.
A lot of it probably comes from people who voted remain trying to classify those who voted leave as racist or xenophobic bigots.House is on the market, so see how it goes.
Some people seem to want to conflate a desire not to be in political union with the rest of Europe with not liking the rest of Europe.
Half of my family are mainland Europeans. My wife is, my nieces and nephews are, and I spend a lot of the year at my home there, but I'm not keen on being in the EU.
If anything it's my friends who voted remain who are the ones who couldn't imagine living and working on the continent, as very few of them have the transferable skills, the language, or the inclination to shift countries.
I suspect most remainers are, just like a lot of leavers, just getting on with their lives whilst vaguely wondering how much things are going to change.
It was governments of the day that changed the EEC into the EU. Governments from across Europe, including our very own. Did we not have any elections between 1975 and now? No times when you could voice your opinion of the EU and the direction your government was taking?
s2art said:
Raygun said:
mike9009 said:
turbobloke said:
Which political Party should people have voted for to not continue 'on course' within the EU project, and when exactly?
UKIP?As previously mentioned, people in large numbers began voting for a single policy party (UKIP) to get us out which forced the Tories to offer a referendum and we took the opportunity to leave in 2016.
If we could genuinely have steered the direction of the EU prior to that then we probably wouldn't be leaving now.
wiggy001 said:
s2art said:
Raygun said:
mike9009 said:
turbobloke said:
Which political Party should people have voted for to not continue 'on course' within the EU project, and when exactly?
UKIP?As previously mentioned, people in large numbers began voting for a single policy party (UKIP) to get us out which forced the Tories to offer a referendum and we took the opportunity to leave in 2016.
If we could genuinely have steered the direction of the EU prior to that then we probably wouldn't be leaving now.
UKIP arrived on the scene when it was already too late in one sense, but not in another.
The Referendum Act was passed (no thresholds on turnout or majority, no requirement to stay in SM or CU etc), then the referendum was held, and sufficient numbers voted Leave to take the UK out of the EU regardless of the marvellous / wonderful / munificent / competent / financially sound EU with all its myriad benefits on offer, benefits whch were so many that Remain hardly knew where to start and they never really did
James_B said:
A lot of it probably comes from people who voted remain trying to classify those who voted leave as racist or xenophobic bigots.
.
Always a good sound-bite this one..
Even though in reality a lot of remainers didn't do anything of the sort.
But, who needs reality, when an argument requires winning.
Like the majority, I hated the bloated and unelected EU, but due to my job, I could see more problem's with simply ripping up the agreements.
The next few years of negotiations, will prove if I was wrong or not.
I do find it highly amusing, when people forcibly inform me that 'Brexit' happened for over a year ago and 'it wasn't that bad'.
Its almost as though a sub-set of the population has no clue of the difference between the vote and the act, or how long the full Brexit process will take, before it is finished.
Edited by Mandalore on Monday 31st July 08:43
turbobloke said:
wiggy001 said:
s2art said:
Raygun said:
mike9009 said:
turbobloke said:
Which political Party should people have voted for to not continue 'on course' within the EU project, and when exactly?
UKIP?As previously mentioned, people in large numbers began voting for a single policy party (UKIP) to get us out which forced the Tories to offer a referendum and we took the opportunity to leave in 2016.
If we could genuinely have steered the direction of the EU prior to that then we probably wouldn't be leaving now.
UKIP arrived on the scene when it was already too late in one sense, but not in another.
The Referendum Act was passed (no thresholds on turnout or majority, no requirement to stay in SM or CU etc), then the referendum was held, and sufficient numbers voted Leave to take the UK out of the EU regardless of the marvellous / wonderful / munificent / competent / financially sound EU with all its myriad benefits on offer, benefits whch were so many that Remain hardly knew where to start and they never really did
Problem was Wilson then had to deal with a party split and gave the 1975 referendum to sort it out, so with the latest ref, that's twice now that party politics have been unable to resolve the issue. Returning to theme, for reasons discussed 1975 was a very different era in terms of information availability to the public, BBC and all papers were pro Europe with the exception of the Morning Star, how times change, plus anyone that was campaigning against the EEC membership was roundly abused and vilified as being a bit special, how times don't change.
But essentially PPP and TB are correct, the public were taken in and not given a choice nor properly informed. For example in 1973 soon after its entry Britain was at a summit which included the accord, “The Heads of State or of Government reaffirm the determination of the Member States to achieve economic and monetary union.” However very rapidly that was off the agenda, or so people thought as first Britain floated the pound, and then France did likewise with the Franc, so the idea of monetary union, which meant fixed exchange rates, was completely impossible. Cleverly Pompidou had linked Britain's accession to monetary union, which itself was tied to a central fund, and would mean Britain getting funds, support for depressed industries and regions. Now the French argued that the impossibility of monetary union meant that money would never come to Britain, and it hasn't.
Problem now for the 75 referendum, with two of the major currencies having floating exchange rates, was that the campaign to remain a member could argue against anyone who knew about the original accord quoted above that this was clearly not going to be an issue and thus we were merely voting about a common trading area. Of course there were some additional things, and as soon as anyone started investigating the detail of these, e.g. CAP, CFP the seriously negative issues became clear.
The overwhelming result in the 75 referendum has been held as a sword to the throat of the electorate for decades, even when the issues with the EU were becoming clear, and by the time any anti EU sentiment developed and organised, as TB said it was almost too late. Thank God that Remain were so confident of winning that they blew it, and it clearly really sticks in their collective craws.
Oh sorry, one more amusing thing I was going to offer to show how times change. When Louis Bleriot was the first person to fly across the channel he claimed a thousand pound prize offered by an English newspaper. Who today would have thought that the prize for a foreign person to enter the UK after setting off from Sangatte was put up by.....
The Daily Mail.
Edited by FiF on Monday 31st July 09:03
Pan Pan Pan said:
Remember that it was the Heath government in 1973 that took the UK into the EEC without asking the people of the UK if this was what they wanted,
It's a disgrace...if it were true. EEC membership was Conservative party policy for about ten years before 1970 & we organise ourselves via a representative democracy. People knew what they were getting if they cared to find out.Eddie Strohacker said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Remember that it was the Heath government in 1973 that took the UK into the EEC without asking the people of the UK if this was what they wanted,
It's a disgrace...if it were true. EEC membership was Conservative party policy for about ten years before 1970 & we organise ourselves via a representative democracy. People knew what they were getting if they cared to find out.Pan Pan Pan said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Remember that it was the Heath government in 1973 that took the UK into the EEC without asking the people of the UK if this was what they wanted,
It's a disgrace...if it were true. EEC membership was Conservative party policy for about ten years before 1970 & we organise ourselves via a representative democracy. People knew what they were getting if they cared to find out.Here is a Microsoft word copy of a lecture covering some of the facts, 3rd in a series. HTH
h at history.
More economic negativity. This one is in my news feed today:-
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/british-motoris...
"The SMMT’s report said a WTO tariff on imported car parts of between 2.5% and 4.5% would cost the average car owner an extra £21 a year for replacement components."
How much?! £21! The horror ...
Also, it assumes your car bits are from the EU. As both my cars are Jap, it might be10-20% cheaper.
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/british-motoris...
"The SMMT’s report said a WTO tariff on imported car parts of between 2.5% and 4.5% would cost the average car owner an extra £21 a year for replacement components."
How much?! £21! The horror ...
Also, it assumes your car bits are from the EU. As both my cars are Jap, it might be10-20% cheaper.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff