The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
Aphex said:
I'd never impose something like that on someone. If I told someone they had to refer to me as 'x' I'd fully expect them to tell me to shove it my arse and get over myself. But wouldn't that constitute a hate crime?
That depends if your actions meet the criteria of harassment or another crime. Either way you don't have to use "x" in conversation with them, you could use their name and fundamentally the English language has developed ways to communicate where names, gender and gendered pronouns are not needed and has been in use that way as gender neutral singular language for centuries. They, them their.So there are many ways to communicate with someone without your speech being compelled, and as i said, one of them is to not communicate, a liberty not permitted with compelled speech.
Vandenberg said:
They aren't a big deal in real life, In academia, I play the game by their rules to keep my contract.
I wonder if we'll eventually reach a point where the academic world is so far removed from the rest of us that it becomes a self-contained society, like the old Japanese and Chinese Imperial courts.Aphex said:
I'd never impose something like that on someone. If I told someone they had to refer to me as 'x' I'd fully expect them to tell me to shove it my arse and get over myself. But wouldn't that constitute a hate crime?
You're going to get extremists in any situation, of course. But I think most people are just expressing a preference. Clashes will always occur at the extremes. The most militant cyclists will be the ones who deliberately p
s off motorists, and vice versa. And motorists will always see the worst cyclists, and cyclists will always see the worst motorists. But for most road users, people just basically want to get on and are considerate to each other. And, of course, some people are both motorists and cyclists.
I think these things will basically sort themselves out over the next generation or so.
Things that for us are a big deal simply aren't for our kids and grand kids. And things that aren't a big deal for us were a huge deal for our parents and grandparents.
The world turns.
8.4L 154 said:
That depends if your actions meet the criteria of harassment or another crime. Either way you don't have to use "x" in conversation with them, you could use their name and fundamentally the English language has developed ways to communicate where names, gender and gendered pronouns are not needed and has been in use that way as gender neutral singular language for centuries. They, them their.
So there are many ways to communicate with someone without your speech being compelled, and as i said, one of them is to not communicate, a liberty not permitted with compelled speech.
Yeah I understand that there are ways around it but I'm envisioning the worst case and you have a militant type that is out looking for trouble. Its so needless but it seems you agree that you don't have to use the preferred pronounsSo there are many ways to communicate with someone without your speech being compelled, and as i said, one of them is to not communicate, a liberty not permitted with compelled speech.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
You're going to get extremists in any situation, of course. But I think most people are just expressing a preference.
Clashes will always occur at the extremes. The most militant cyclists will be the ones who deliberately ps off motorists, and vice versa. And motorists will always see the worst cyclists, and cyclists will always see the worst motorists.
But for most road users, people just basically want to get on and are considerate to each other. And, of course, some people are both motorists and cyclists.
I think these things will basically sort themselves out over the next generation or so.
Things that for us are a big deal simply aren't for our kids and grand kids. And things that aren't a big deal for us were a huge deal for our parents and grandparents.
The world turns.
Indeed, whilst the things like Bill C16 do concern me, I've never encountered it in the real world so I'll wait and see Clashes will always occur at the extremes. The most militant cyclists will be the ones who deliberately p
s off motorists, and vice versa. And motorists will always see the worst cyclists, and cyclists will always see the worst motorists. But for most road users, people just basically want to get on and are considerate to each other. And, of course, some people are both motorists and cyclists.
I think these things will basically sort themselves out over the next generation or so.
Things that for us are a big deal simply aren't for our kids and grand kids. And things that aren't a big deal for us were a huge deal for our parents and grandparents.
The world turns.
Aphex said:
Yeah I understand that there are ways around it but I'm envisioning the worst case and you have a militant type that is out looking for trouble. Its so needless but it seems you agree that you don't have to use the preferred pronouns
Well, that's the thing. People get fixated on the worst case to the exclusion of the general case. This thread has been full of "WhatIfIsms" and "ButWhatAboutisms"
And toilets. Never forget the toilets.
Aphex said:
Indeed, whilst the things like Bill C16 do concern me, I've never encountered it in the real world so I'll wait and see
Indeed. 
Aphex said:
Indeed, whilst the things like Bill C16 do concern me, I've never encountered it in the real world so I'll wait and see
It's rare, if not unheard of. I work in a particularly 'vibrant' part of London (Shoreditch) which attracts a lot of alternative folk. There are quite a few people here who are clearly transgender and not making much effort to pass, probably some who pass quite well and I haven't even noticed, and a big chunk who are a chimera of fashion and humanity and are indeterminate everything. Not once has someone asked me to called them 'zher' or similar.j_4m said:
It's rare, if not unheard of. I work in a particularly 'vibrant' part of London (Shoreditch) which attracts a lot of alternative folk. There are quite a few people here who are clearly transgender and not making much effort to pass, probably some who pass quite well and I haven't even noticed, and a big chunk who are some kind of hybrid of fashion and humanity of indeterminate anything. Not once has someone asked me to called them 'zher' or similar.
I don't imagine its a large part of the community that really want such things, the vocal ones always seem to rise to the topj_4m said:
Davos123 said:
Please explain. I genuinely would love to know why you think somebody suddenly chooses to reject a gender they identify with for one they don't.
I'm sure you can describe some incredibly niche scenario where that might happen (like for significant financial gain) but it's not going to be the lived experience of basically any trans person on earth.
People are impressionable, they fetishise and obsess over things. I can believe there are people out there who want to be part of the social movement associated with gay and trans rights and go to any lengths to get involved. The same kind of people who engage in class tourism.I'm sure you can describe some incredibly niche scenario where that might happen (like for significant financial gain) but it's not going to be the lived experience of basically any trans person on earth.
This does not in anyway delegitimise transgender people or support the idea that it is a choice, but for sure there are people out there who chose rather than were compelled by their sense of self.
Edited by j_4m on Thursday 21st February 21:55
But that's a whole different topic and not completely related to this thread. However, are there now some trans people who identify as the opposite of their birth sex for the attention (they won't completely transition (probably)).
And, no CC, I am not suggesting you fall into this bracket at all, as you've clearly stated you've felt different from a very young age.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Well, here's the thing. Sometimes I just can't be arsed to put my makeup on, and just pull on a t-shirt and jeans, and pop on down to the shops to get a pint of milk, passing as male. People obviously refer to me as "sir" and "he" when I do that, and that's fair enough and I don't challenge it.
Also, until recently, I would generally present as male for work. Mainly because all my qualifications, client history, business relationships, etc., all know me by my birth name. Well, male-ish anyway - still have decidedly non-male manicured nails with nail varnish, earrings, and decidedly feminine mannerisms, although a lot of people misinterpret that as camp / gay.
It all kind of worked ok whilst my professional and personal lives stayed separate, but the lines have very much blurred in recent years. And one of the issues that has come about from that is what pronouns people use for me when they know me both professionally and socially. Obviously if it's in the context of the here & now, then it's the pronoun appropriate for how I am presenting. But when referring to something in the past or future, it's a little more difficult. I think if gender-neutral pronouns were in general accepted use (rather than sounding weird and alien like they currently do) then people would just use gender-neutral pronouns in those circumstances.
It's one of the reasons I adopted "JJ" as a nickname as it is gender neutral. People can refer to me by name without having to worry about my gender presentation. And I have noticed that people do. Those who have known me by both the names that make up "JJ" tend to call me JJ these days. Not because I have asked them to, but because it is just a whole lot easier for them to do than to worry about which name is appropriate in which circumstance.
If gender-neutral pronouns were ubiquitous then I think people would similarly just use them. But they're not - they sound odd and alien right now because they are. Give it a few generations and historians will look back on us in much the same way as we chuckle about the odd English spoken in Shakespeare or Chaucer.
Sounds like a very simple solution to the "problem" and I suspect if I knew anyone who had transitioned and was similar to yourself where sometimes its less obvious I would use their name/nickname to avoid being wrong. I find (from youtube videos I grant you) that there are a lot of militant activists out there that aren't as understanding as yourself and take HUGE offense to being misgendered. I think for 99% of the time there is no problem and two rational people having a conversation will get past these just fine but the media seems to push an agenda on both sides which then gets into the mindsets of the ordinary folk. Terrible shame. Also, until recently, I would generally present as male for work. Mainly because all my qualifications, client history, business relationships, etc., all know me by my birth name. Well, male-ish anyway - still have decidedly non-male manicured nails with nail varnish, earrings, and decidedly feminine mannerisms, although a lot of people misinterpret that as camp / gay.
It all kind of worked ok whilst my professional and personal lives stayed separate, but the lines have very much blurred in recent years. And one of the issues that has come about from that is what pronouns people use for me when they know me both professionally and socially. Obviously if it's in the context of the here & now, then it's the pronoun appropriate for how I am presenting. But when referring to something in the past or future, it's a little more difficult. I think if gender-neutral pronouns were in general accepted use (rather than sounding weird and alien like they currently do) then people would just use gender-neutral pronouns in those circumstances.
It's one of the reasons I adopted "JJ" as a nickname as it is gender neutral. People can refer to me by name without having to worry about my gender presentation. And I have noticed that people do. Those who have known me by both the names that make up "JJ" tend to call me JJ these days. Not because I have asked them to, but because it is just a whole lot easier for them to do than to worry about which name is appropriate in which circumstance.
If gender-neutral pronouns were ubiquitous then I think people would similarly just use them. But they're not - they sound odd and alien right now because they are. Give it a few generations and historians will look back on us in much the same way as we chuckle about the odd English spoken in Shakespeare or Chaucer.
Michaelbailey said:
Sounds like a very simple solution to the "problem" and I suspect if I knew anyone who had transitioned and was similar to yourself where sometimes its less obvious I would use their name/nickname to avoid being wrong. I find (from youtube videos I grant you) that there are a lot of militant activists out there that aren't as understanding as yourself and take HUGE offense to being misgendered. I think for 99% of the time there is no problem and two rational people having a conversation will get past these just fine but the media seems to push an agenda on both sides which then gets into the mindsets of the ordinary folk. Terrible shame.
Well, quite. Decent people will behave decently, and arses will be arses. It is ever such. The media prefer to report on arses because it sells better. Meanwhile, decent people just get on with being decent to each other.
Interesting interview on Spiked with the chap who was stopped from researching 'detrasitioning' by Bath Spa University:
https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/02/22/my-battle...
https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/02/22/my-battle...
j_4m said:
I wonder if we'll eventually reach a point where the academic world is so far removed from the rest of us that it becomes a self-contained society, like the old Japanese and Chinese Imperial courts.
Wouldnt surprise me, US is slightly different as there are different risks to UK, that if a student gets distressed they will either sue or run home and come back with a gun so they tend to be very risk averse.Johnnytheboy said:
Interesting interview on Spiked with the chap who was stopped from researching 'detrasitioning' by Bath Spa University:
https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/02/22/my-battle...
That's interesting, there was a youtube link (I think it was youtube) on this very thread, it will be many, many pages back now. It was of a US documentary about transgender issues and there was a guy on there who transition to a woman, only to find it wasn't what had caused his anxiety etc at an early age. He has now transitioned back to be a man. I got the impression that he was happier now, was in a relationship with a woman etc. Although there was no sex involved. because it was done a while ago his penis only functions for urinating and has no sexual function it can achieve and by all accounts likes nothing like a real one. But as I said, he's happy now.https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/02/22/my-battle...
AshVX220 said:
That's interesting, there was a youtube link (I think it was youtube) on this very thread, it will be many, many pages back now. It was of a US documentary about transgender issues and there was a guy on there who transition to a woman, only to find it wasn't what had caused his anxiety etc at an early age. He has now transitioned back to be a man. I got the impression that he was happier now, was in a relationship with a woman etc. Although there was no sex involved. because it was done a while ago his penis only functions for urinating and has no sexual function it can achieve and by all accounts likes nothing like a real one. But as I said, he's happy now.
Which is fair enough. People can and do make mistakes and change their mind. Otherwise we wouldn't have laser tattoo removal. But just because some people change their mind on tattoos and want them removed again, it doesn't mean we should ban tattoos. For sure, make sure people are really serious about getting a tattoo before they get one, but don't go around saying that people should not get tattoos because some people change their mind later.
(Poor analogy that will now be ripped to shreds, of course)
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