The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
Clockwork Cupcake said:
I don't think people should be banned, nor posts deleted. I think they should be left for posterity so people can continue to see the ugliness rather than a sanitised version.
If we erase the reprehensible posts, then it feeds the idea of "what's all the fuss about?" and "I see no evidence of *-phobia". I'd rather the worst posts remain so we can point at them and say "it's there".
I don't think they should be deleted but what's the point in allowing someone to continue to post in the thread when they're contributing nothing but hate? This thread has had some really interesting discussion and it would be a shame for it to be ruined by a few extremely bigoted and hateful people If we erase the reprehensible posts, then it feeds the idea of "what's all the fuss about?" and "I see no evidence of *-phobia". I'd rather the worst posts remain so we can point at them and say "it's there".
Clockwork Cupcake said:
If I do, then it is unintended.
Text is an inexact medium that fails to convey the same nuance and extra information of verbal communication.
Having said that, I'm of the age now when I can accept the fact that I can't be liked by everyone. If some people are upset with my posting style after almost 18 years on PH (what a scary thought *that* is) then so be it.
Well I'm still not sure whether to forgive you over your disparagement of the eagles!Text is an inexact medium that fails to convey the same nuance and extra information of verbal communication.
Having said that, I'm of the age now when I can accept the fact that I can't be liked by everyone. If some people are upset with my posting style after almost 18 years on PH (what a scary thought *that* is) then so be it.
Davos123 said:
I don't think they should be deleted but what's the point in allowing someone to continue to post in the thread when they're contributing nothing but hate? This thread has had some really interesting discussion and it would be a shame for it to be ruined by a few extremely bigoted and hateful people
That's my view, so they won't be posting in the thread again.
Davos123 said:
.... but what's the point in allowing someone to continue to post in the thread when they're contributing nothing but hate? .
Well there are arguments for and against this line of thinking.I think there is a benefit to not have a society whereby freedom of thought/opinion is restricted to one single narrative, thus allowing people the capacity to both love and to hate.
To remove hate and forcing everyone to love everything, only goes to produce a very fake/fabricated version of society.
If people are allowed to voice opinion whenever it fits on the scale then at least others can accept or reject it at their pleasure.
AshVX220 said:
I was hoping to have a sensible discussion about the term "theyby", rather than baby and whether it's;
A) needed (Baby is already a gender free term)
B) whether it could automatically lead to confusion for the child in future
I just passed it off as hipster nonsense and moved on. There are all sorts of new bullsA) needed (Baby is already a gender free term)
B) whether it could automatically lead to confusion for the child in future
t words made up every day which, as I get older, have me reaching for Urban Dictionary more and more often. I don't really think there is much to discuss on it, personally.
That's just my opinion, though. But the reason I haven't debated it is because I didn't care enough about it to comment.
It would seem that the pruning shears have been out overnight both on the posts and the posters allowed to post.
I still don't think it is the correct thing to do. Allowing people to voice their prejudiced views, and have others challenge those views, forces them to hear dissenting voices that tell them that, no, it is not ok to say things like that.
Plus it gives them enough rope to hang themselves. By banning them and deleting their posts, you take the rope away.
I still don't think it is the correct thing to do. Allowing people to voice their prejudiced views, and have others challenge those views, forces them to hear dissenting voices that tell them that, no, it is not ok to say things like that.
Plus it gives them enough rope to hang themselves. By banning them and deleting their posts, you take the rope away.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
It would seem that the pruning shears have been out overnight both on the posts and the posters allowed to post.
I still don't think it is the correct thing to do. Allowing people to voice their prejudiced views, and have others challenge those views, forces them to confront their ugliness and to hear dissenting voices that tell them that, no, it is not ok to say things like that.
Plus it gives them enough rope to hang themselves. By banning them and deleting their posts, you take the rope away.
I seem to be able to see them?I still don't think it is the correct thing to do. Allowing people to voice their prejudiced views, and have others challenge those views, forces them to confront their ugliness and to hear dissenting voices that tell them that, no, it is not ok to say things like that.
Plus it gives them enough rope to hang themselves. By banning them and deleting their posts, you take the rope away.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
It would seem that the pruning shears have been out overnight both on the posts and the posters allowed to post.
I still don't think it is the correct thing to do. Allowing people to voice their prejudiced views, and have others challenge those views, forces them to confront their ugliness and to hear dissenting voices that tell them that, no, it is not ok to say things like that.
Plus it gives them enough rope to hang themselves. By banning them and deleting their posts, you take the rope away.
I think when posts are removed they should not just disappear but be edited by the MOD to remove the content and highlight that the post was unacceptable. I'm concerned though that an anything goes approach legitimises hate speech and emboldens others while making positive engagement difficult for minority contributors. PH has a significant membership and trans posters are under represented.I still don't think it is the correct thing to do. Allowing people to voice their prejudiced views, and have others challenge those views, forces them to confront their ugliness and to hear dissenting voices that tell them that, no, it is not ok to say things like that.
Plus it gives them enough rope to hang themselves. By banning them and deleting their posts, you take the rope away.
8.4L 154 said:
I think when posts are removed they should not just disappear but be edited by the MOD to remove the content and highlight that the post was unacceptable.
Yes. "This post was removed by a moderator" would be preferable, I agree. 
8.4L 154 said:
I'm concerned though that an anything goes approach legitimises hate speech and emboldens others while making positive engagement difficult for minority contributors.
That's a fair point. Clockwork Cupcake said:
[
Not sure I agree on that one. 8.4L 154 said:
I'm concerned though that an anything goes approach legitimises hate speech and emboldens others while making positive engagement difficult for minority contributors.
That's a fair point. Surely we're going back to the question of who defines what speech is classed as hate or not, which is of course affected by the personal biasof the moderator? Also I'm not sure why some someone sharing an opinion on a public forum (however ridiculous) either legitimizes it or makes engagement for others difficult?
Clockwork Cupcake said:
I just passed it off as hipster nonsense and moved on. There are all sorts of new bullst words made up every day which, as I get older, have me reaching for Urban Dictionary more and more often.
I don't really think there is much to discuss on it, personally.
That's just my opinion, though. But the reason I haven't debated it is because I didn't care enough about it to comment.
100% this. It’s pretentious people being pretentious, ‘child’ and ‘baby’ are already gender neutral terms.t words made up every day which, as I get older, have me reaching for Urban Dictionary more and more often. I don't really think there is much to discuss on it, personally.
That's just my opinion, though. But the reason I haven't debated it is because I didn't care enough about it to comment.
Now, whether or not it’s damaging to the kid; being brought up without any of societies gender markers isn’t going to do any harm, IMO. A child is going to work out who they are just fine. Having your parents’ ideology nailed to your chest however is probably not going to do you any favours.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
It would seem that the pruning shears have been out overnight both on the posts and the posters allowed to post.
I still don't think it is the correct thing to do. Allowing people to voice their prejudiced views, and have others challenge those views, forces them to hear dissenting voices that tell them that, no, it is not ok to say things like that.
Plus it gives them enough rope to hang themselves. By banning them and deleting their posts, you take the rope away.
I don't think anything's been removed by us moderators, possibly the posters themselves did. I still don't think it is the correct thing to do. Allowing people to voice their prejudiced views, and have others challenge those views, forces them to hear dissenting voices that tell them that, no, it is not ok to say things like that.
Plus it gives them enough rope to hang themselves. By banning them and deleting their posts, you take the rope away.
I get your point but those posts crossed into trolling.
Bill said:
I don't think anything's been removed by us moderators, possibly the posters themselves did.
I think perhaps I was mistaken then. I have been contacted by one of the former contributors of this thread saying that they had been banned, and a cursory scan of the thread made me think that posts had been removed but I can now see that they have not.
j_4m said:
Now, whether or not it’s damaging to the kid; being brought up without any of societies gender markers isn’t going to do any harm, IMO. A child is going to work out who they are just fine. Having your parents’ ideology nailed to your chest however is probably not going to do you any favours.
I've been following "Man vs Pink" on Twitter for several years (and occasionally dipping into his blog too) which is about a dad striving to bring up his daughter in a way as to allow her the freedom to find her own path, and dress herself, and be herself, with him trying hard not to enforce gender roles (either way) on her, but just let her develop as a *person*. She'll often dress herself in odd mixes of Star Wars and Disney Princess clothes which is very cute. The dad comes across as very level-headed. He has no agenda other than to strive not to have one.
I watched a few videos online yesterday about this whole subject, the title of the video was "There are only 2 genders change my mind" it's worth a watch by a youtuber called Steven Crowder.
non of the people that sat down changed his mind on the subject or mine, the videos are unedited so everything you see is legit from both sides.
check it out they may change your mind or they may not!
I believe from what I have seen, read and listened to that gender and sex are the same thing male is male and female is female like I always believed it to be.
If you are trans I think you are a man or women who likes to look/behave like the opposite sex/gender but that it doesn't make you that gender you're still the sex/gender you were born as, but if it makes you happy to do this that's fine I have no problem with it, the world would be very boring if we were all the same.
looking at the non-binary debate further I don't think there can be a middle ground between the two sex/genders its black and white, you cant have an infinite spectrum of gender, if you do allow this infinite spectrum to be recognised how do you ever talk to someone without offending them?
you cant reasonably say that its practical to ask everyone you come in to contact with how they prefer to be addressed, he,hes,she,her,it,xy,Apache helicopter,they, there other and so on. Asking someones name is completely different to the latter.
I also find that when these people are challenged they "all" seemingly come up with and invent all these big words, to sound intelligent as if that will in some way add merit to their argument, it really does the opposite in my opinion it comes across like the terms and conditions on a legal document, long winded and boring and doesn't actually tell you anything useful.
I really hope this strange fad fizzles out soon, I seriously think the world is going mad, case in point calling a newborn baby "theyby"
let kids be kids don't brain wash them with your own ideals! children are innocent to the worlds bullst and the longer they stay like that the happier their lives will be.
non of the people that sat down changed his mind on the subject or mine, the videos are unedited so everything you see is legit from both sides.
check it out they may change your mind or they may not!
I believe from what I have seen, read and listened to that gender and sex are the same thing male is male and female is female like I always believed it to be.
If you are trans I think you are a man or women who likes to look/behave like the opposite sex/gender but that it doesn't make you that gender you're still the sex/gender you were born as, but if it makes you happy to do this that's fine I have no problem with it, the world would be very boring if we were all the same.
looking at the non-binary debate further I don't think there can be a middle ground between the two sex/genders its black and white, you cant have an infinite spectrum of gender, if you do allow this infinite spectrum to be recognised how do you ever talk to someone without offending them?
you cant reasonably say that its practical to ask everyone you come in to contact with how they prefer to be addressed, he,hes,she,her,it,xy,Apache helicopter,they, there other and so on. Asking someones name is completely different to the latter.
I also find that when these people are challenged they "all" seemingly come up with and invent all these big words, to sound intelligent as if that will in some way add merit to their argument, it really does the opposite in my opinion it comes across like the terms and conditions on a legal document, long winded and boring and doesn't actually tell you anything useful.
I really hope this strange fad fizzles out soon, I seriously think the world is going mad, case in point calling a newborn baby "theyby"
let kids be kids don't brain wash them with your own ideals! children are innocent to the worlds bulls
t and the longer they stay like that the happier their lives will be.Clockwork Cupcake said:
AshVX220 said:
I was hoping to have a sensible discussion about the term "theyby", rather than baby and whether it's;
A) needed (Baby is already a gender free term)
B) whether it could automatically lead to confusion for the child in future
I just passed it off as hipster nonsense and moved on. There are all sorts of new bullsA) needed (Baby is already a gender free term)
B) whether it could automatically lead to confusion for the child in future
t words made up every day which, as I get older, have me reaching for Urban Dictionary more and more often. I don't really think there is much to discuss on it, personally.
That's just my opinion, though. But the reason I haven't debated it is because I didn't care enough about it to comment.
Milnero said:
let kids be kids don't brain wash them with your own ideals! children are innocent to the worlds bullst and the longer they stay like that the happier their lives will be.
Ok. So that includes not imposing rigid gender roles on your kids ("No, you can't play with that! That toy is for girls") and not imposing religious views on them either for that matter. t and the longer they stay like that the happier their lives will be.desolate said:
When I read comments like this I always think what they actually mean is that they want kids to be fed the bullst that they are comfortable with.
Indeed. t that they are comfortable with.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff