45th President of the United States, Donald Trump (Vol. 12)

[BadBull]

AW111 said:

left wing rag said:

Leader behind bleach ‘miracle cure’ claims Trump consumed his product

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/22/bl...

So he's being held awaiting trial for peddling industrial bleach as a Covid cure, and he gives interviews to the international press admitting it.

[tangerine_sedge]

andy_s said:

I think we maybe ought to disentangle 'different political views' with 'alt-right nudge tactics'...proximally at least.
---
Read TP's post back with a foot in the other shoe and try to keep nodding your heads - if you think this only applies to some sort of nebulous Sunsteinian alt-rightery you're sorely mistaken. Look soberly at what happened to our 'sense making apparatus' media during the Trump years - they did a fairly good job of nudging something that was 80% bad to being 110% bad, so much so that they missed perhaps the biggest story of the 21st century that has at its heart the very future existence of humanity. Surkov would be proud indeed.

There are loons on both sides, both constructing opposite realities for their own ends - look at the business models, the vapidity of the commentariat, the level of uncritical thinking, consider how far 'liberal' has morphed into 'illiberal', how 'kind' are you really when you're only kind to those you like and being hateful to those you don't doesn't count. Everyone bemoans 'echo chambers' within their own echo-chamber. Let's not be the kind psychiatrist fooled by the cunning psychopath, that's one of the things we cried about with Trump, right...?

I also get the Trump-induced anger, but that is the chimp within us all, so let me be clear in an attempt to mute some of it that's maybe heading my way - there is no virtue you could name that Trump wasn't, there is no way he should have ever been in that position, it's clear. But blaming it on bots and pyramids is the easy diagnosis [and is of course a part of it] but it doesn't require you to look inward at the sanctimony of the opposition and the revulsion of flawed people by it and the hypocrisy it necessarily generates. Assuming the worst in people as a default prior should ring alarm bells, shouldn't it? It's another Trumpian reflexivity.

Politics is horrendous at the moment, we don't select on competence, we select on narrative and in/out group with an increasingly Manichean mind-set set against a landscape we barely understand - this is the true 'populist' disease and it won't be cured by staring long and hard into either the abyss or the Washington Post...
---
If you want to make sense of it all don't read newspapers, read Robert Cialdini, Niccolo Machiavelli, Rene Girard, Eric Hoffer and Peter Pomerantsev and watch a boxset of the Sopranos.

Thanks for posting this.

I think many on this thread actually welcomed alternative views, but there were very few posters who could get beyond a superficial explanation of why they supported trump. I think that most people on this thread attempted to play the ball and not the man, but the series of "I'm not a trump fan but..." returning banned posters were called out in double-quick time.

Respect for other posters and their opinions should be the "norm", but outright trolling and easily proven nonsense should be called out - the resident trolls obviously didn't like that their nonsense was repeatedly highlighted as such.

Finally, coming back to TPs post :

It's clear that talking points can be turned into national debates which can be turned into policy change. Brexit being a prime example (something that hardly registered with most voters 20 years ago, has actually been enacted). I'm not saying that Brexit was caused by online conversation, but it's clear that a small handful of focused people repeating a relatively simple message can persuade others, and that message can be magnified and accelerated online by bots and other actors ( NBCnews about twitter bots).

[Ben Lowden]

bhstewie said:

I'm sure people don't want to be perceived as being awkward but the example that leaps to mind is whether screengrabs of tweets are allowed for example? Or only links to the tweet?

Or if I link to an article on the BBC can I quote anything from the article or will I be banned for doing so at the whim of a moderator which is what appears to have happened to Byker?

This is exactly what I'm going to clarify with our legal team. It may take a week or so but once I have clarity, I'll update here and we'll adjust the rules of posting as required.

fatbutt said:

While I understand the point of the rule and its place in a forum like this, I still don't understand how one poster can do it one way for so long and never receive a warning.

Our moderators are mostly volunteers and all do an exceptional job at keeping the forums alive - we'd be lost without them. Naturally rules and guidelines can be interpreted differently; the mod who took action was not a regular on this thread and it was their first instance of seeing Byker's posting style (which I have also never seen). So it's understandable that even though Byker may have been posting this way for 5+ years, if it's new to a mod, then the length of time is irrelevant.

I'll clarify as soon as I can, but until then, as you were...

Slaav said:

Now - what's the Orange moron been up to today?

[BadBull]

Ben Lowden said:

if it's new to a mod, then the length of time is irrelevant.

Should a mod with no experience of NP&E be moderating it?

For example when Kinky and Rotrex Kid moderated this thread it ran perfectly smoothly for years.

Then the new mod with no experience took over and look at what's happened.

Edited by BadBull on Tuesday 22 June 12:59

[APontus]

For me, you know a thread is being properly moderated when you don't know who's doing the moderating. There's also an argument against people with strong feelings either way being tasked with moderating discussion over contentious subjects (like this one).

[BadBull]

You've only been here a month, so your knowledge of moderation is impressive....

[APontus]

BadBull said:

You've only been here a month, so your knowledge of moderation is impressive....

I've been on lots of forums, moderated on a number of them and read lots of them (including this thread).

The issue I mentioned is a direct cause of the Byker ban; a moderator unfamiliar with the individuals applying the rules differently to moderators who do.

The rules need to be clearer because they're not clear now and the application of them consistent. It's hard to apply rules consistently if/when you have a notional iron in the fire.

I don't think Byker should be banned from the thread for doing something you can find happening all over the forums here pretty much all of the time.

[MXRod]

Perhaps the mods should talk to each other , and if a mod is unfamiliar with a forum member's posting style , ask others before acting on impulse , that particular mod should consider his/her position .as clearly this move caused intense irritation as to how the forum is run .
The forum may be owned from finance POV by others . But the forum is also owned by the members, without them it will die.

[citizensm1th]

BadBull said:

Ben Lowden said:

bhstewie said:

if it's new to a mod, then the length of time is irrelevant.

Should a mod with no experience of NP&E be moderating it?

For example when Kinky and Rotrex Kid moderated this thread it ran perfectly smoothly for years.

Then the new mod with no experience took over and look at what's happened.

Agreed its hardly fair on a mod used to looking after the yoghurt knitting and macrame section to suddenly be handed the keys to the bear pit that is np&e.

While I accept our erstwhile leaders explanation i do find it strange the a regular on PH can be unaware of a thread with so many volumes. It is regularly in the top ten threads in the what's new section.

Perhaps the selection of mods needs to be looked at as well and maybe people who predominantly spend their time one or two sections of the fora are not the best fit.

fora I have frequented in the past you have one or two global mods who could moderate all sections and every section had one or two mods who would only moderate a single section. It seemed to work well

[silentbrown]

Ben Lowden said:

bhstewie said:

I'm sure people don't want to be perceived as being awkward but the example that leaps to mind is whether screengrabs of tweets are allowed for example? Or only links to the tweet?

Or if I link to an article on the BBC can I quote anything from the article or will I be banned for doing so at the whim of a moderator which is what appears to have happened to Byker?

This is exactly what I'm going to clarify with our legal team. It may take a week or so but once I have clarity, I'll update here and we'll adjust the rules of posting as required.

Re tweets, ideally we would be able to embed the tweet directly rather than using a screenshot. In much the same way that youtube videos can be directly embedded.

Relevant example!

[silentbrown]

BadBull said:

Then the new mod with no experience took over and look at what's happened.

Moderation being outsourced via Amazon Mechanical Turk now?

[rscott]

Ben Lowden said:

bhstewie said:

I'm sure people don't want to be perceived as being awkward but the example that leaps to mind is whether screengrabs of tweets are allowed for example? Or only links to the tweet?

Or if I link to an article on the BBC can I quote anything from the article or will I be banned for doing so at the whim of a moderator which is what appears to have happened to Byker?

This is exactly what I'm going to clarify with our legal team. It may take a week or so but once I have clarity, I'll update here and we'll adjust the rules of posting as required.

fatbutt said:

While I understand the point of the rule and its place in a forum like this, I still don't understand how one poster can do it one way for so long and never receive a warning.

Our moderators are mostly volunteers and all do an exceptional job at keeping the forums alive - we'd be lost without them. Naturally rules and guidelines can be interpreted differently; the mod who took action was not a regular on this thread and it was their first instance of seeing Byker's posting style (which I have also never seen). So it's understandable that even though Byker may have been posting this way for 5+ years, if it's new to a mod, then the length of time is irrelevant.

I'll clarify as soon as I can, but until then, as you were...

Slaav said:

Now - what's the Orange moron been up to today?

Seems odd the mod didn't even look back at any other posts in the thread but straight away banned Byker28i without any warnings though. I think that's the issue which concerns most posters - that a mod failed to follow the correct process of warnings before banning.

[AW111]

So is Byker allowed to post in this thread or not?

I assume he's still banned, as he's not posted here since the ban.

[fatbutt]

Perhaps we can sin-bin the mod for over-reacting to a key poster who is very well respected for the work they've been doing?

How does one become a mod anyway? I've been on here 19 years now and its never been clear...

[Big Al.]

AW111 said:

So is Byker allowed to post in this thread or not?

I assume he's still banned, as he's not posted here since the ban.

No Byker is not banned from the thread, he has the ability to post as and when he chooses.

HTHE.

[Big Al.]

fatbutt said:

Perhaps we can sin-bin the mod for over-reacting to a key poster who is very well respected for the work they've been doing?

Just for reference, the mod didn't over-react, and I would have done the same had I'd have come across the post first. It was just a routine mod action.

fatbutt said:

How does one become a mod anyway? I've been on here 19 years now and its never been clear...

You can volunteer via mail or reply to any moderator recruiting thread as and when they appear.

[hidetheelephants]

AW111 said:

left wing rag said:

Leader behind bleach ‘miracle cure’ claims Trump consumed his product

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/22/bl...

That's pretty tragic, printing an article like that on no more than the testimony of a convicted fraudster and snake oil man.

[pincher]

Big Al. said:

Just for reference, the mod didn't over-react, and I would have done the same had I'd have come across the post first. It was just a routine mod action.

To be honest, that is even more worrying - that a 'seasoned' Mod would take the same heavy-handed course of action, without knowing anything about the poster in question or the the thread, or conferring with anyone else

[citizensm1th]

pincher said:

Big Al. said:

Just for reference, the mod didn't over-react, and I would have done the same had I'd have come across the post first. It was just a routine mod action.

To be honest, that is even more worrying - that a 'seasoned' Mod would take the same heavy-handed course of action, without knowing anything about the poster in question or the the thread, or conferring with anyone else

I am supprised that the mods don't and indeed have not discussed this thread or one of its many volumes in the mod chat section of ph.

[Tom Logan]

So, a third party mod then, only responding to reports rather than being bona fide forum members?