PC censorship vs debate and free speech, worrying trends.

[Rovinghawk]

ATG said:

He asked you if YOU knew right from wrong. I.e. do you have a sense of sense of some things being right and other things being wrong. If you do not, then you are amoral. He isn't making the claim that there is a single correct morality that everyone must agree to.

FYI I have a sense of right & wrong. I believe it differs from his and possibly yours.

I believe that everyone has the right to freedom of speech within the limits of the law & I believe that those limits should be as broad as possible, ie subject to necessity not taste.

You would be free to call me a Nazi in the same way that I would be free to suggest that you are Marty Feldman's secret love child- neither is true (I presume in your case, obviously) and neither statement actually matters.

I further believe that those who tell others what they should think are in the wrong. I nevertheless support your freedom to make statements to the contrary.

[Bacon Is Proof]

Rovinghawk said:

ATG said:

He asked you if YOU knew right from wrong. I.e. do you have a sense of sense of some things being right and other things being wrong. If you do not, then you are amoral. He isn't making the claim that there is a single correct morality that everyone must agree to.

FYI I have a sense of right & wrong. I believe it differs from his and possibly yours.

I believe that everyone has the right to freedom of speech within the limits of the law & I believe that those limits should be as broad as possible, ie subject to necessity not taste.

You would be free to call me a Nazi in the same way that I would be free to suggest that you are Marty Feldman's secret love child- neither is true (I presume in your case, obviously) and neither statement actually matters.

I further believe that those who tell others what they should think are in the wrong. I nevertheless support your freedom to make statements to the contrary.

Finally!
So, Rovinghawk.
From what you have written, can we assume that, in your opinion, fascism is wrong?

[Rovinghawk]

Bacon Is Proof said:

Finally!
So, Rovinghawk.
From what you have written, can we assume that, in your opinion, fascism is wrong?

I'll answer your question in the hope that you'll answer mine:

It's a bit curate's egg, really- good in parts. I can find parts of the BNP or NF manifestos that I can support & parts that I find utterly repulsive. I have a similar view on both fascism & socialism.

Now- please answer my question & tell me the difference (IYO) between right & wrong.

[Bacon Is Proof]

Rovinghawk said:

Now- please answer my question & tell me the difference (IYO) between right & wrong.

It's subjective.
ATG got it, explained it to you, and rendered your question obsolete.

Rovinghawk said:

It's a bit curate's egg, really- good in parts

Which aspects of fascism do you find really good?

[Rovinghawk]

Bacon Is Proof said:

Which aspects of fascism do you find really good?

How about the intent to maintain one's industrial capabilities rather than let them atrophy?

If only you'd answer my questions the way I answer yours. You realise that others on this thread were curious as to your definition of right & wrong?

[Stickyfinger]

Rovinghawk said:

Bacon Is Proof said:

You realise that others on this thread were curious as to your definition of right & wrong?

~

I am......just answer him as requested, he did your question.

[Bacon Is Proof]

Rovinghawk said:

How about the intent to maintain one's industrial capabilities rather than let them atrophy?

Keeping the country prepared for war (the fascist reasoning behind maintaining industry) isn't high on my priority list, so we'll have to differ there.

Rovinghawk said:

If only you'd answer my questions the way I answer yours.

My questions generally have a definitive answer, with the goal of achieving conclusion.
Your questions generally don't have a definitive answer, and have the goal of maintaining argument.

Rovinghawk said:

You realise that others on this thread were curious as to your definition of right & wrong?

My definition of right and wrong doesn't differ from the OED's, so not sure why it required special interest.

[Bacon Is Proof]

Stickyfinger said:

I am......just answer him as requested, he did your question.

He did indeed, though I am surprised he doesn't conclude that fascism is bad, or wrong.

It's ok for example, to conclude that Nazis are bad or wrong, even if they did have the snazziest uniforms.

[anonymous-user]

Not-The-Messiah said:

I think you should have a quick search on YouTube and see the behaviour of these people. Personally if I was in the middle of any group that has shown the levels of violence both sides have, I would be in fear from my safety. Especially having a slight understand of mob rule and how such situations can get out of hand very quickly.

Personally I think it's only a matter of time until they do kill someone especially now they have been endorsed and emboldened by the media and politicians.

No I shouldn't look at any right or left wing agenda Youtube video or be directed to some cranky website with some telling me 9/11 was an inside job. If I'm watching anything on Youtube it will be music related.

[Stickyfinger]

[Rovinghawk]

Bacon Is Proof said:

He did indeed, though I am surprised he doesn't conclude that fascism is bad, or wrong.

It's ok for example, to conclude that Nazis are bad or wrong, even if they did have the snazziest uniforms.

If Hitler had died in a car crash in eg 1937 he'd probably be hailed today as one of the world's great leaders.

Nothing is entirely right or wrong. I give you Bob Geldoff & Live Aid- BG had the best of motives but exacerbated a catastrophe. Is he right or wrong in what he did? Hitler brought a crippled Germany back to a position of power before the wheels fell off. Is he totally wrong or did he do some good?

You'd probably wish to deny me the freedom of speech for my comments.

[Derek Smith]

Rovinghawk said:

How about the intent to maintain one's industrial capabilities rather than let them atrophy?

I suppose that's one way of looking at Hitler's intent.

I get the feeling though that there was some desire to go to war against Russia. I might be wrong of course and perhaps he was forced into it.

I wonder at the long term implication of spending all that money that the country didn't have on munitions.

[Rovinghawk]

Derek Smith said:

I suppose that's one way of looking at Hitler's intent.

I get the feeling though that there was some desire to go to war against Russia. I might be wrong of course and perhaps he was forced into it.

I wonder at the long term implication of spending all that money that the country didn't have on munitions.

In fairness, when mentioning national industrial capability I thought we were discussing modern fascism rather than 1940s Nazism but I'm happy to go with the tangent.

[mko9]

Raygun said:

But they don't murder people by running them over like Unite the ste.

I think you are deluding yourself if you believe the Antifa crowd are incapable of the same act. The white supremacists/racists just beat them to the punch. Antifa and their supporters have already shown the willingness to riot, commit arson, assault, etc. Someone has even attempted a bombing in the wake of Charlottesville. The only difference is when an Antifa type drives into a crowd, it will be in a Prius or an Uber.

[Mr2Mike]

Bacon Is Proof said:

Mr2Mike said:

See, that is fine since you are just stating your own opinion. It's when you attempt to state other peoples opinions that it all goes very ironic.

Edited by Mr2Mike on Monday 21st August 18:21

Of course it's my opinion, and I'd be happy to discuss matters with anyone that doesn't share my opinions.

As I say opinions are fine. Telling people what their default positions must be on ideologies you don't like is not fine.

[Not-The-Messiah]

Raygun said:

Not-The-Messiah said:

I think you should have a quick search on YouTube and see the behaviour of these people. Personally if I was in the middle of any group that has shown the levels of violence both sides have, I would be in fear from my safety. Especially having a slight understand of mob rule and how such situations can get out of hand very quickly.

Personally I think it's only a matter of time until they do kill someone especially now they have been endorsed and emboldened by the media and politicians.

No I shouldn't look at any right or left wing agenda Youtube video or be directed to some cranky website with some telling me 9/11 was an inside job. If I'm watching anything on Youtube it will be music related.

So you get all your information from left wing main stream corporate media then? For all its faults and lots and lots crap on there it is in my opinion the most unbiased outlet for what actually happened at certain events much of which is just raw unedited footage. Unlike MSM footage of events which is usually heavily edited and filtered.

I would love more people to investigate and search for information themselves rather than just trust what they see on the TV and in the papers.

[grumbledoak]

Not-The-Messiah said:

So you get all your information from left wing main stream corporate media then? For all its faults and lots and lots crap on there it is in my opinion the most unbiased outlet for what actually happened at certain events much of which is just raw unedited footage. Unlike MSM footage of events which is usually heavily edited and filtered.

I agree with you, in theory - I think that people given access to lots of unfiltered real footage will interpret very well what they are seeing. The legacy media has always relied on bias and filtering to grow it's own power and influence, until it got an enormous shock recently. But the new media companies are now doing the same - YouTube is de-monetizing people it doesn't like, Twitter "trends" are make believe, and God alone knows what Zuckerburg will do to his readers.

[anonymous-user]

Not-The-Messiah said:

So you get all your information from left wing main stream corporate media then?

I do the crossword in the Daily Mail everyday does that count?

[tali1]

Funkycoldribena said:

tali1 said:

Yes "at war with itself" - but who is stirring the pot ? who gains from this apparent self destruction ? most of IS victims are muslims .That is the perception the media want -and more importantly the zionist controlled media want.The zionists are committing terrorism on Palestinians - but hey as they say Israeli= commando, Palestinain =Terrorists.Even the jews hate zionists.
Pakistan gets lots of bombings from Islamic militants -who do you think funds those terrorists ? (clue ,5 letters begins with I ends with A)
Zionists,are much more than "shouty demonstrations".And now they have got into bed withe the other extremist - the Wahhabi Saudis (odd , that the west is so pally with the most extreme muslim country)
https://www.thenation.com/article/trumps-white-hou...
https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/da...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/domestic-terro...

There's a big distinction between Israelis and Palestinians.
One targets civilians, one doesn't.

https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/theamazingwor...

[Not-The-Messiah]

Talking about YouTube quite a stark and fair film on Charlottesville I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTJDPorywkY

Defiantly lots of idiots being idiots. It reminds me of football hooligans, they say they are going to watch a football match but really going looking for a fight. Both sides arrange a time and a place and get stuck in, but just like football hooliganism innocent people get caught up in it.

From that video yes I would say the vast amount of blame lies with the far right but it looks like an almost complete failure with regards to policing.

I fully support the right to protest and free speech within the law, but the right to turn up to these events all tooled and masked up is beyond me.

Interesting to note that the fully armed assault rifle lot claimed to have no affiliation to far right groups and seeing that they where having pictures taken with black kids sort of shows this.