War with Russia
Discussion
johnxjsc1985 said:
hidetheelephants said:
Piracy and obstructing freedom of navigation; this is why Russia should not be allowed nice things.
How many more times is the world going to turn a blind eye to Russia's constant bullying.The answer is, imo, not very much at all.
TheJimi said:
johnxjsc1985 said:
hidetheelephants said:
Piracy and obstructing freedom of navigation; this is why Russia should not be allowed nice things.
How many more times is the world going to turn a blind eye to Russia's constant bullying.The answer is, imo, not very much at all.
king the russian economy, not that it was not already a basketcase.2. actually start dealing with the dirty money washing through London etc; that would get Putin's attention pretty quick.
hidetheelephants said:
TheJimi said:
johnxjsc1985 said:
hidetheelephants said:
Piracy and obstructing freedom of navigation; this is why Russia should not be allowed nice things.
How many more times is the world going to turn a blind eye to Russia's constant bullying.The answer is, imo, not very much at all.
king the russian economy, not that it was not already a basketcase.2. actually start dealing with the dirty money washing through London etc; that would get Putin's attention pretty quick.
TheJimi said:
What, realistically, can the rest of the world actually do in the face of a belligerent with a significant nuclear arsenal?
The answer is, imo, not very much at all.
well pretty much. USA/Russia/China can do as they iwhs in their back yard.The answer is, imo, not very much at all.
Russia is currently under sanctions?
glazbagun said:
I've wanted to visit Ukraine since the 90's but never have. Maybe I should do it now before the curtain goes up again. 
I went once about 7 years ago...my over whelming memory was how dark it was, literally no lights anywhere in town. Also the poverty...there were people making a living carrying two bottles of beer over the border into Hungary on foot and selling them on for a few cents profit per bottle and repeat. Took about 15 mins to get ove the border each way...a very marginal living.
Liokault said:
I went once about 7 years ago...my over whelming memory was how dark it was, literally no lights anywhere in town. Also the poverty...there were people making a living carrying two bottles of beer over the border into Hungary on foot and selling them on for a few cents profit per bottle and repeat. Took about 15 mins to get ove the border each way...a very marginal living.
Sounds like a future UK under a Corbyn Governments Liokault said:
glazbagun said:
I've wanted to visit Ukraine since the 90's but never have. Maybe I should do it now before the curtain goes up again.
I went once about 7 years ago...my over whelming memory was how dark it was, literally no lights anywhere in town. Also the poverty...there were people making a living carrying two bottles of beer over the border into Hungary on foot and selling them on for a few cents profit per bottle and repeat. Took about 15 mins to get ove the border each way...a very marginal living.DMN said:
Russia has been taking control of more and more of Georgia. Seems they are trying to invade as much as possible before they join NATO:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/russia-quietly-seizi...
I would ask WTF is NATO thinking about having Georgia join. It’s like the Isle of Man joining the Warsaw Pact. People criticise Russia for taking control of Crimea, where most of the population is Of Russian origin and Russia has its biggest naval base, after, it has to be said a Western-sponsored fascist government comes to power, and we think that THEY are threatening US? Give over.http://uk.businessinsider.com/russia-quietly-seizi...
cardigankid said:
I would ask WTF is NATO thinking about having Georgia join. It’s like the Isle of Man joining the Warsaw Pact. People criticise Russia for taking control of Crimea, where most of the population is Of Russian origin and Russia has its biggest naval base, after, it has to be said a Western-sponsored fascist government comes to power, and we think that THEY are threatening US? Give over.
Quite so. Thinking outside the box, how about a really radical resolution - a negotiated settlement?
Unfortunately, we appear to prefer fighting to the last Ukrainian as an alternative to recognising that Crimea is now, again, part of Russia, as it was since about the time of the founding of the United States of America. Irreversibly so this time, as any facing of facts would recognise. And it takes a pretty skewed application of principle to argue - as 'we' apparently do - that Crimea can never be Russian absolutely irrespective of the wishes of the people who live there.
In addition, some of the NATO expansion is even catastrophic to the credibility of the organisation. Back in the day when I carried a rifle made two years before I was born there was absolutely no doubt that we would go to war and risk nuclear annihilation for the West German border, for Denmark's territorial integrity, or for the mutual defence of Norway.
Pick a town in one of the new or would-be new members and put your hand on heart and say, yes, we are willing to kill hundreds of millions of people over its status. It waters down the credibility of the whole promise of mutual defence.
(And it's a cruel deceit of these prospective members as to which policy decisions actually offer the best chances of prosperity and peaceful co-existence).
Octoposse said:
Pick a town in one of the new or would-be new members and put your hand on heart and say, yes, we are willing to kill hundreds of millions of people over its status. It waters down the credibility of the whole promise of mutual defence.
(And it's a cruel deceit of these prospective members as to which policy decisions actually offer the best chances of prosperity and peaceful co-existence).
Incidentally, this was a big reason why many Finns don't want to join NATO. They'd p(And it's a cruel deceit of these prospective members as to which policy decisions actually offer the best chances of prosperity and peaceful co-existence).
s off Russia, but also don't believe that US troops are going to die for their country.Octoposse said:
Quite so.
Thinking outside the box, how about a really radical resolution - a negotiated settlement?
Unfortunately, we appear to prefer fighting to the last Ukrainian as an alternative to recognising that Crimea is now, again, part of Russia, as it was since about the time of the founding of the United States of America. Irreversibly so this time, as any facing of facts would recognise. And it takes a pretty skewed application of principle to argue - as 'we' apparently do - that Crimea can never be Russian absolutely irrespective of the wishes of the people who live there.
Thinking outside the box, how about a really radical resolution - a negotiated settlement?
Unfortunately, we appear to prefer fighting to the last Ukrainian as an alternative to recognising that Crimea is now, again, part of Russia, as it was since about the time of the founding of the United States of America. Irreversibly so this time, as any facing of facts would recognise. And it takes a pretty skewed application of principle to argue - as 'we' apparently do - that Crimea can never be Russian absolutely irrespective of the wishes of the people who live there.
If there was to be a free and fair vote on the determination as to what nation of people living in a region were to be part of, only a fool would suggest that vote should happen after occupation. That would be akin to the Poles voting in 1939.
Octoposse said:
In addition, some of the NATO expansion is even catastrophic to the credibility of the organisation. Back in the day when I carried a rifle made two years before I was born there was absolutely no doubt that we would go to war and risk nuclear annihilation for the West German border, for Denmark's territorial integrity, or for the mutual defence of Norway.
Pick a town in one of the new or would-be new members and put your hand on heart and say, yes, we are willing to kill hundreds of millions of people over its status. It waters down the credibility of the whole promise of mutual defence.
(And it's a cruel deceit of these prospective members as to which policy decisions actually offer the best chances of prosperity and peaceful co-existence).
There is some truth in that and that is/was a concern of the Baltic States and Poland, hence the Warsaw Summit and the deployment of eFP to those states as a deterrent.Pick a town in one of the new or would-be new members and put your hand on heart and say, yes, we are willing to kill hundreds of millions of people over its status. It waters down the credibility of the whole promise of mutual defence.
(And it's a cruel deceit of these prospective members as to which policy decisions actually offer the best chances of prosperity and peaceful co-existence).
The West sees Russia as a geopolitical rival and Russia sees the west the same. The West wants to keep Russia hemmed in to prevent global economic competition from a nation which is essentially a mafia state and as such would be difficult to compete against in a rule based economic environment where your competitor doesn't comply with the rules. The former Soviet States have independence and quite like it on the whole. The synergy is obvious.
There is a school of thought as to why Russia got involved in Syria, and that is not because of Islamist terrorism or having continued access to the Med. Leverage. Syria was a mess that the western democracies could not afford to get heavily involved with due to the poor public opinion of intervention in Iraq and Libya. Russia wades in and decisively changes the situation. Now they can say, "we will pull out of Syria if you accept Crimea as a Russian territory".
Looks like Putin might be about to have another 'exercise' just over the border.
http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-accuses-russia-o...
http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-accuses-russia-o...
I was in Ukraine last week for work. Very civilised in an Eastern European way. Lots of grand buildings and monuments in Kiev. Took a train 3 hours east to Poltava, second class on the way there, first class back, which was very nice, for the grand total of £20 return. Hotel in Poltava was fine and £25 for the night. Blooming cold mind you, -7C on a windy dark latform is chilly. Definitely worth a visit.
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