Discussion
don'tbesilly said:
amusingduck said:
don'tbesilly said:
I always thought El Stovey was a Remain voter, did I get that wrong?
Yup, he voted to Leave because he didn't want to become part of a federal superstate, IIRC.Strangely he's got very similar views to many others who voted to Leave. although I don't think many will be voting for the Lib-Dems, and for very obvious reasons.
Jo's certainly no believer in the democracy as described by one of her predecessors, one with far more principles than her, and one who's memory will last more than the 5 mins Swinson's will.
https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/11735197072...
don'tbesilly said:
I'm guessing Guy Verhofstadt has reassured you with his vision of the direction the EU is heading in which has rather bizarrely negated your original reason for voting to leave the EU!
Weird
Pragmatism. Weird
No, It’s not perfect but as I said, the E.U. is actually more democratic than I thought and what’s happened since the referendum and the way it’s been going under Boris and Cummings seems an even worse outcome.
don'tbesilly said:
El stovey said:
don'tbesilly said:
I'm guessing Guy Verhofstadt has reassured you with his vision of the direction the EU is heading in which has rather bizarrely negated your original reason for voting to leave the EU!
Weird
Pragmatism. Weird
No, It’s not perfect but as I said, the E.U. is actually more democratic than I thought and what’s happened since the referendum and the way it’s been going under Boris and Cummings seems an even worse outcome.
You wanted to leave the EU as you didn't believe in a federal superstate.
Nothing, absolutely nothing has changed in regards the direction the EU is heading.
Arguably for someone with those views originally held back in 2016, things have deteriorated further still with the EU's stance on an armed force something that was demeaned by strangely enough a Lib-Dem - Nick Clegg (He quite clearly lied!).
You cite pragmatism, that won't stop the journey the EU is taking.
The journey is one many didn't want to make and voted against it in 2016 with their vote to leave the EU, you also didn't want to make the journey and voted to Leave the EU to avoid making the journey in 2016, now do, it's a really rather bizarre decision in my opinion, buy hey ho.
Do you never do this? Get new information reassess a decision and decide a new course of action might be better?
Like I said it’s just pragmatism. I’d made some incorrect assumptions about the E.U., seen what a mess brexit is and decided that although the E.U. isn’t perfect, leaving is worse.
It’s what people not slavishly tied to ideology do. Make decisions based on facts and change them if the circumstances change or new information becomes available or they find out they were wrong.
don'tbesilly said:
Absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind based on changing circumstances.
It's bizarre that you voted to Leave the EU because you didn't want to become part of a federal superstate, and you now think the EU have changed course and are no longer heading in that direction.
What specifically (is it a document you've read? A speech you've heard?) has made you think along the lines that the EU have changed their desired journey and ultimate destination?
I'd be interested to hear as perhaps would others, maybe I and others would buy into the vision you have now seen since 2016.
I don’t think the E.U. are changing direction, I’ve never said that at all.It's bizarre that you voted to Leave the EU because you didn't want to become part of a federal superstate, and you now think the EU have changed course and are no longer heading in that direction.
What specifically (is it a document you've read? A speech you've heard?) has made you think along the lines that the EU have changed their desired journey and ultimate destination?
I'd be interested to hear as perhaps would others, maybe I and others would buy into the vision you have now seen since 2016.
What I said was after seeing the brexit options, I now think the brexit options available are all worse than the direction the E.U. are going in. It’s simply deciding what’s the least bad.
don'tbesilly said:
Right I get it now.
Pragmatism is accepting the UK becoming part of a federal superstate ( a colony just off the Nth coast of the EU) because the other options are worse.
I'm guessing my view on worse/least bad differs dramatically to those of others, geez!
Well yes, geez indeed.Pragmatism is accepting the UK becoming part of a federal superstate ( a colony just off the Nth coast of the EU) because the other options are worse.
I'm guessing my view on worse/least bad differs dramatically to those of others, geez!
That’s why you want to leave and others don’t, or others don’t agree with yours or my assessment. Everyone’s got different views on what will or won’t happen. We can only base our decisions on how we feel we are affected at the moment and how we all think it might unfold.
People might be very pro E.U. or anti E.U. ideologically or they might just be deciding on the best (or least worst) options. I don’t think the U.K. will ultimately become “a colony” though, more of a part of an EU federation of states.
For me as brexit has unfolded, all the leave options now look worse than remaining and what that might involve. You obviously think differently.
NoNeed said:
Brooking10 said:
PositronicRay said:
You still think the current mess is all about brexit, don't you.
Ray speaks the truth.Our country isn’t in this situation purely and simply because of Brexit or for that mater the EU.
Those things have merely served as lightning rods.
Helicopter123 said:
MC Bodge said:
Lindun said:
I can’t wait for the next election, even a Tory landslide wouldn’t be enough to stop meltdown if the LibDems get more than a single vote nationally based on the bile in here.
These angry men on here are not typical of the nation as a whole, just that grumpy type of man who is ANGRY about THINGS! I wonder if you’re angry and google stuff that makes you angry, it links to PHs?
I’m in some work related forums and some for other hobbies etc and none have the same kind of angry blokes that seem to be becoming more prevalent in here.
Brooking10 said:
NoNeed said:
Brooking10 said:
PositronicRay said:
You still think the current mess is all about brexit, don't you.
Ray speaks the truth.Our country isn’t in this situation purely and simply because of Brexit or for that mater the EU.
Those things have merely served as lightning rods.
So the next government either has to somehow address these issues or dismiss them and hope not enough people feel like that.
Britain’s a pretty great country though. There’s opportunities and free education and healthcare, some support if you need it. The government and businesses seem to be offering more apprenticeships and getting more people into education and qualifications. I’m not sure there’s a huge amount more they can be doing. People still have to take the opportunities they’re offered to improve their lot.
don'tbesilly said:
I guess that's why we are where we are, the insidious creep has been virtually invisible.
But if it’s only creeping (insidiously) and virtually invisible it doesn’t sound an immediate threat to me.I’ve had a look at how brexit is actually turning out right now, and am now more worried about a hard brexit and the direction Boris and Cummings are taking than our future relationship with the E.U. at the moment. That’s why I’ve changed my mind.
That’s what it comes down to with me. What’s worse, a possible future increase in European political integration or a hard brexit with Boris and Cummings at the helm.
So at the moment that’s why I’d vote for the libdems if the GE was tomorrow, despite voting leave in the referendum.
MC Bodge said:
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said:El stovey said:
Some of the angry ones have always been angry. I remember some ranting about Blair all the time before there was even a news and politics forum. Some have apparently got worse as they’ve got older. I think a lot of the newer angry posters are just the same old ones rejoining.
I wonder if you’re angry and google stuff that makes you angry, it links to PHs?
I’m in some work related forums and some for other hobbies etc and none have the same kind of angry blokes that seem to be becoming more prevalent in here.
It's one of the things that genuinely terrifies me about getting old.I wonder if you’re angry and google stuff that makes you angry, it links to PHs?
I’m in some work related forums and some for other hobbies etc and none have the same kind of angry blokes that seem to be becoming more prevalent in here.
I've said before but I used to have a very poor attitude on a lot of things and in many cases I think there are conscious choices made to act that way.
don'tbesilly said:
How does one gauge anger on an internet forum?
It's just as likely that you are angry because you think people are angry with you, it's a nonsense.
Suggesting some are angry as some form of belittlement is amusing,it just reflects badly on those suggesting such nonsense in the first place and invites the inevitable mockery.
"Oh look it's the angry Leave voter", said the very angry Remain voter posting on a internet forum
It’s easy, it’s about the language they use. It's just as likely that you are angry because you think people are angry with you, it's a nonsense.
Suggesting some are angry as some form of belittlement is amusing,it just reflects badly on those suggesting such nonsense in the first place and invites the inevitable mockery.
"Oh look it's the angry Leave voter", said the very angry Remain voter posting on a internet forum
For instance you sound a bit angry, you're not completely triggered but maybe 3/10. The stuff about posters saying other people are angry means it’s them that are angry is obviously a bit defensive and nonsensical and the emoji at the end gives it away also. It’s like you’re trying to appear to be scoffing but actually you’re a little bit annoyed.
The fact that you’re also doing all this on a thread about a political party you’re not happy about, who are proposing to ignore brexit, which also seems to upset you, is also a give away.
don'tbesilly said:
You sound angry (am I doing this right)
I'm not grilling anyone, El Stovey doesn't appear to be bothered by my queries, why are you?
I thought they were a bit odd and tedious in the end TBH , and even though I think I answered most of it, I then got accused of sniping a quote in a telling way or something for some reason. (am I doing this right)I'm not grilling anyone, El Stovey doesn't appear to be bothered by my queries, why are you?
Then you got into the whole angry poster thing. I would say your attention felt a little bit weird, but anyway.
don'tbesilly said:
El stovey said:
don'tbesilly said:
You sound angry (am I doing this right)
I'm not grilling anyone, El Stovey doesn't appear to be bothered by my queries, why are you?
I thought they were a bit odd and tedious in the end TBH , and even though I think I answered most of it, I then got accused of sniping a quote in a telling way or something for some reason. (am I doing this right)I'm not grilling anyone, El Stovey doesn't appear to be bothered by my queries, why are you?
Then you got into the whole angry poster thing. I would say your attention felt a little bit weird, but anyway.
laugh
It’s like when someone’s staring at you or keeps asking you the same question or making too much eye contact, It doesn’t make you angry, just a little uncomfortable at the unwanted attention.
Vanden Saab said:
ash73 said:
A Winner Is You said:
I'm glad revoke is a USP for the LibDems.With the other parties in disarray it's an open goal; bring on the election!
Won’t labour and the libdems just continue successfully to make these agreements?
Although Farage seems to want to make agreements with the conservatives, they’ll possibly be less willing to make agreements with someone who has won no seats and a bit of a toxic brand.
ash73 said:
We're giving up an optimal deal with all sorts of special case exceptions for leaving with no clue what the future looks like; inevitably it'll be a disaster and we'll want to rejoin, it will take years and the EU won't offer the same terms.
Remainers made a big mistake going on about a second referendum when they should have been pushing for a cancellation clause in the WA. If there was one we could dip our toes in the water and quickly realise we're better off where we are.
Even you must see the quite obvious flaw in that strategy?Remainers made a big mistake going on about a second referendum when they should have been pushing for a cancellation clause in the WA. If there was one we could dip our toes in the water and quickly realise we're better off where we are.
ash73 said:
Robertj21a said:
I've got news for you - there's not a chance in hell that we'll want to rejoin the EU.
Sorry to be the bearer of such sad news.
It's a moot point, Brexit will never happen without the support of Parliament.Sorry to be the bearer of such sad news.
And the LibDems have come up with the most elegant way to cancel it.
Corbyn taking his party to the loony left, Boris and Mogg taking what remains of their party to the alt-right, it's a f
king wide open goal in the centre.Bring on the election!
All that jazz about 'unicorn promises'; this is that!
If they win they promise they will revoke. They won't win.
If they don't win they won't support Labour or the Tories in government.
So if there's a GE then a vote for the Lib Dems is a wasted vote!
I always saw the Lib Dems as being the 'reasonable' ones, a bit grey and a bit wet but nice. LOL!
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