Police Officer killed on duty
Discussion
Regarding the French police, I think the police would welcome the same number the French have, which IIRC, is about 100,000 more for a similar population.
All that experience did was reinforce that your assertions about what 'that majority almost certainly do' is wrong.
Preferable to the 'internet hardman' posting.
SeeFive said:
Sorry I couldn’t respond in your timeframe LL, I have been at the hospital all day again today with a very sick missus on the lung ward and just got in. I also don’t remember saying anything about community charge, just a range of crimes, including as we seem to agree the Irish solution to trespass as an enabler and everything else from ASB to human trafficking. You really don’t have to look too far to find myriad examples of the MO. There are examples on here of the “give them a crime number” approach that can lead some far from the actual cheeky chappies themselves to believe that all is good as you suggest.
Try observing them. Try dealing with them. Get your drive done. Have them remove a mix of valuable aluminium and trash from a site and see what goes first, and what is never taken on the promised missing return trip as agreed. Stand behind them in a shop as they maraud through, one paying for a mars bar and the others leaving with quite a bit of stock unpaid for. Sit in a restaurant and observe them putting their own hair into food trying to refuse to pay, and see what happens when they are challenged. Be in the local pub the week after the landlord has ejected two of them and see what happens when they return mob handed to sort out the landlord (luckily that night most of the boxing club were in). When they build an illegal encampment close to your home, try taking your usual dog walk route which happens to be close to that latest infestation and see what happens. Live in Epsom at Derby time. Live close to Wickham for that infestation. You will find it is far from the few spoiling the image of the many. Just like the average speeding motorist who apparently only speeds once every 6 years if you just look at the convictions, unfortunately the lawlessness that goes with that lifestyle when properly observed is way different to the recorded crime.
And since I am in such a great mood to discuss this (not), present personal experience and do all the googling for you for the news articles reporting it (not) I will just leave it at the fact that you obviously know best, are steeped in convivial interaction with them and what we are doing today is just fine with regard to preventing these little scamps from committing no crime at all. No need to create a properly resourced focus such as we do against other problem areas of society (drugs, serious crime etc) as clearly they are law abiding in the main.
They are treated no different to the rest of us, plod is under resourced for fear of a confrontation to come and arrest me where I live too I am sure should I ever commit a crime.
“Nothing to see here, on your way sir”.... “Thanks officer”.
I did deal with them. Try observing them. Try dealing with them. Get your drive done. Have them remove a mix of valuable aluminium and trash from a site and see what goes first, and what is never taken on the promised missing return trip as agreed. Stand behind them in a shop as they maraud through, one paying for a mars bar and the others leaving with quite a bit of stock unpaid for. Sit in a restaurant and observe them putting their own hair into food trying to refuse to pay, and see what happens when they are challenged. Be in the local pub the week after the landlord has ejected two of them and see what happens when they return mob handed to sort out the landlord (luckily that night most of the boxing club were in). When they build an illegal encampment close to your home, try taking your usual dog walk route which happens to be close to that latest infestation and see what happens. Live in Epsom at Derby time. Live close to Wickham for that infestation. You will find it is far from the few spoiling the image of the many. Just like the average speeding motorist who apparently only speeds once every 6 years if you just look at the convictions, unfortunately the lawlessness that goes with that lifestyle when properly observed is way different to the recorded crime.
And since I am in such a great mood to discuss this (not), present personal experience and do all the googling for you for the news articles reporting it (not) I will just leave it at the fact that you obviously know best, are steeped in convivial interaction with them and what we are doing today is just fine with regard to preventing these little scamps from committing no crime at all. No need to create a properly resourced focus such as we do against other problem areas of society (drugs, serious crime etc) as clearly they are law abiding in the main.
They are treated no different to the rest of us, plod is under resourced for fear of a confrontation to come and arrest me where I live too I am sure should I ever commit a crime.
“Nothing to see here, on your way sir”.... “Thanks officer”.
All that experience did was reinforce that your assertions about what 'that majority almost certainly do' is wrong.
Brads67 said:
La Liga said:
Cost him internet shaming.
Yawn. You not got any preaching to do?SeeFive said:
Not assertions, I don’t know why you keep using that word. Experience chap, just experience. Always the same, never differs.
Which doesn't prove what you stated: SeeFive said:
La Liga said:
SeeFive said:
Where do you want to start on criminality? Anti-social behaviour? Driving motor vehicles on common land? Threatening behaviour, breach of peace, trespass, human trafficking, even your citing of TB’s motoring discrepancies (which I admit are not criminal offences in the main) they will be there in some percentage. They are all laws, and certainly for the minor ones in that list, many are broken daily by the majority. And seemingly it is escalating in severity and nonchalance towards the laws of the land and the communities they lay scorn upon given events of the last few years such as the brewery and similar events.
Are they?SeeFive said:
Every “illegal encampment” is full of our friends breaking the law, or it wouldn’t be an illegal encampment. So 100% are breaking the law daily before they start their business efforts. Some will hide behind words such as “it’s not really illegal”, if so, why is it so named?
Illegal encampments don't make up the majority of travellers like you were talking about. See the bold above. SeeFive said:
And another personal example last night. Not breaking a law per-se but certainly making a nuisance of themselves in their usual ignorant way.
I mentioned my missus is in hospital. Nice quiet ward, 6 women, respectful visitors helping staff where possible with care of their loved ones. Guess who rolled up shrieking in pain like you could not believe? I think you may have guessed.
From minute one, the really poor and aggressively demanding attitude to medical staff, noise, unruly behaviour around some pretty unwell people, inability to count to 2 (2 round a bed maximum) general atmosphere changed in an instant from peace to a more aggressive environment.
And when they left, the previously shrieking and howling in pain patient throughout their visit was on her feet between two occupied beds by the window loudly on her mobile phone to the assholes outside leaning on the hooters of their cars as they were on the road among all the wards leaving the hospital site.
The staff weren’t happy, occupants of the ward weren’t happy, but maybe because of their “special status” in our country decided to let it go, as tends to be the usual way. Personally, I don’t blame them as it clearly would have only made things worse as it is usual case with our tin house friends responding in their feral way to rightful challenge.
Which as nothing to do with what you stated as fact (if you prefer that). I mentioned my missus is in hospital. Nice quiet ward, 6 women, respectful visitors helping staff where possible with care of their loved ones. Guess who rolled up shrieking in pain like you could not believe? I think you may have guessed.
From minute one, the really poor and aggressively demanding attitude to medical staff, noise, unruly behaviour around some pretty unwell people, inability to count to 2 (2 round a bed maximum) general atmosphere changed in an instant from peace to a more aggressive environment.
And when they left, the previously shrieking and howling in pain patient throughout their visit was on her feet between two occupied beds by the window loudly on her mobile phone to the assholes outside leaning on the hooters of their cars as they were on the road among all the wards leaving the hospital site.
The staff weren’t happy, occupants of the ward weren’t happy, but maybe because of their “special status” in our country decided to let it go, as tends to be the usual way. Personally, I don’t blame them as it clearly would have only made things worse as it is usual case with our tin house friends responding in their feral way to rightful challenge.
SeeFive said:
Sorry mate, you appear to be trolling me with one liners and quite a few others on here with extremely relevant experience of those little tinkers. If your version of the facts differ, then that is fine by me, mine differ from yours and are bloody good concrete experience.
A few anecdotes don't entitle you to state what you did. SeeFive said:
If you cannot recognise the MO of these people, then you are blind. If you cannot see that it is widespread throughout the community, then you are blind. Time for me to disengage as I have no power to help the blind see, and frankly do not have the time to waste on such futile efforts right now.
I'm well aware of their criminality and methods. That has nothing to do with what you wrote.
SeeFive said:
La Liga said:
SeeFive said:
Sorry mate, you appear to be trolling me with one liners and quite a few others on here with extremely relevant experience of those little tinkers. If your version of the facts differ, then that is fine by me, mine differ from yours and are bloody good concrete experience.
A few anecdotes don't entitle you to state what you did. SeeFive said:
If you cannot recognise the MO of these people, then you are blind. If you cannot see that it is widespread throughout the community, then you are blind. Time for me to disengage as I have no power to help the blind see, and frankly do not have the time to waste on such futile efforts right now.
I'm well aware of their criminality and methods. That has nothing to do with what you wrote.
You're talking about (if the upper estimates are correct) hundreds of thousands of people.
How do you not see how obviously flawed that 'logic' is?
La Liga said:
t's not a case of granting, it a case of a few anecdotes / experiences don't entitle you to state that the 'majority almost certainly commit crime daily' (paraphrasing).
You're talking about (if the upper estimates are correct) hundreds of thousands of people.
How do you not see how obviously flawed that 'logic' is?
What’s flawed in regard to the daily crimes ? An encampment is a hub of unrestrained criminal activity it’s what they learn to do from an early age.You're talking about (if the upper estimates are correct) hundreds of thousands of people.
How do you not see how obviously flawed that 'logic' is?
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 19th August 07:36
TNTom said:
All from surrounding sites. Scum.
The males are:
A 17-year-old from Bramley, Hampshire.
A 17-year-old from Aldermaston, Berkshire.
A 20-year-old from Burghfield, Berkshire.
A 16-year-old from Burghfield Common, Berkshire.
An 18-year-old from Mortimer, Berkshire.
A 24-year-old from Bramley, Hampshire.
A 30-year-old from Burghfield Common, Berkshire.
A 20-year-old from Reading, Berkshire.
A 16-year-old from Burghfield Common, Berkshire.
A 13-year-old from Burghfield Common, Berkshire.
Our investigation continues.
So hopefully 5 sites will be raided and all of the other nicked stuff recovered, and action taken against everyone claiming benefits illegally. The males are:
A 17-year-old from Bramley, Hampshire.
A 17-year-old from Aldermaston, Berkshire.
A 20-year-old from Burghfield, Berkshire.
A 16-year-old from Burghfield Common, Berkshire.
An 18-year-old from Mortimer, Berkshire.
A 24-year-old from Bramley, Hampshire.
A 30-year-old from Burghfield Common, Berkshire.
A 20-year-old from Reading, Berkshire.
A 16-year-old from Burghfield Common, Berkshire.
A 13-year-old from Burghfield Common, Berkshire.
Our investigation continues.
rallycross said:
La Liga said:
It's not a case of granting, it a case of a few anecdotes / experiences don't entitle you to state that the 'majority almost certainly commit crime daily' (paraphrasing).
You're talking about (if the upper estimates are correct) hundreds of thousands of people.
How do you not see how obviously flawed that 'logic' is?
Stop being a nob, if you know anything about how they behave you would not say that.You're talking about (if the upper estimates are correct) hundreds of thousands of people.
How do you not see how obviously flawed that 'logic' is?
That doesn't mean you can extrapolate that and conclude (potentially) hundreds of thousands of people behave like that.
Tannedbaldhead said:
Nice to see positive hand in pockets contributions to the tragedy as opposed to the knee-jerk reactions I've just read in the last few pages.
Army policing civilians, hanging, shooting, flogging, locking up forever, internment without trial, failure to adhere to due process and rule of law. All nonsense and none of which fits with living in a modern Western democracy.
All we need is a properly funded sufficiently manned and resourced police force and prosecution service enforcing an unchanged justice system to ensure all crimes committed by all sectors of society are methodically and camly investigated with suspects being identified, evidence collected and brought to bear against said suspects resulting in a successfull prosecution.
Good post Army policing civilians, hanging, shooting, flogging, locking up forever, internment without trial, failure to adhere to due process and rule of law. All nonsense and none of which fits with living in a modern Western democracy.
All we need is a properly funded sufficiently manned and resourced police force and prosecution service enforcing an unchanged justice system to ensure all crimes committed by all sectors of society are methodically and camly investigated with suspects being identified, evidence collected and brought to bear against said suspects resulting in a successfull prosecution.
Gameface said:
Former copper white knighting for travellers.
Weird.
By saying he believes they commit a disproportionate amount of crime? Weird.
In order to problem solve you need to accurately define the problem. Suggesting the majority hundreds of (potentially) thousands of people without evidence to do so is weird in my view. As well at the pub solutions, of course.
Halb said:
Taylor James said:
Halb said:
How do 'we' know?
Are you being deliberately obtuse or just disregarding all of the evidence that has been offered over this thread or can be found in most local papers several times a year?Right, OK< as you were.
I've had 20 years in construction hire and had many experiences with the travelling community. Every interaction was negative. Stealing in broad daylight and when challenged threatened etc etc. Member of staff hit with a lump hammer, no prosecution just excuses from police that unbelievably the offender was having a bad day in mitigation... yes he was trying to steal a safe from a lockup unit and our man got in the way..
The problem wether it's denied or not can be encapsulated in an example situation -
Joe bloggs is stopped for traffic offence, he could get a lecture, sarcasm or whatever the officers want to say to him and he has to apologise and hope for the best
Traveller is stopped for traffic offence and officers are likely to get a serious beating if they say a word out of line if the guy even deigns to stop in the first place.
I can see why the police don't want to take them on, as at the end of the day you don't go to work to get beaten up.
However, you shouldn't join up thinking that you can just avoid these types and focus on the less risky.
The extremely brave officer who lost his life was a standout.
The problem wether it's denied or not can be encapsulated in an example situation -
Joe bloggs is stopped for traffic offence, he could get a lecture, sarcasm or whatever the officers want to say to him and he has to apologise and hope for the best
Traveller is stopped for traffic offence and officers are likely to get a serious beating if they say a word out of line if the guy even deigns to stop in the first place.
I can see why the police don't want to take them on, as at the end of the day you don't go to work to get beaten up.
However, you shouldn't join up thinking that you can just avoid these types and focus on the less risky.
The extremely brave officer who lost his life was a standout.
Red 4 said:
1974nc said:
The problem wether it's denied or not can be encapsulated in an example situation -
Joe bloggs is stopped for traffic offence, he could get a lecture, sarcasm or whatever the officers want to say to him and he has to apologise and hope for the best
Traveller is stopped for traffic offence and officers are likely to get a serious beating if they say a word out of line if the guy even deigns to stop in the first place.
I can see why the police don't want to take them on, as at the end of the day you don't go to work to get beaten up.
Utter nonsense.Joe bloggs is stopped for traffic offence, he could get a lecture, sarcasm or whatever the officers want to say to him and he has to apologise and hope for the best
Traveller is stopped for traffic offence and officers are likely to get a serious beating if they say a word out of line if the guy even deigns to stop in the first place.
I can see why the police don't want to take them on, as at the end of the day you don't go to work to get beaten up.
I think you underestimate the level of violence that is directed towards many officers on a regular basis - not just by travellers.
My experience - deal with (some) travellers on their own or in a small group and, although you are unlikely to get a straight answer, they are not that confrontational or aggressive.
Deal with them on "their own turf" or in a large group and problems are likely to arise.
If police are so scared of dealing with travellers then how do you explain so many of them being incarcerated ?
The police would routinely ask our operative to enter traveller camps on the promise of backup on site to recover stolen goods. 9 times out of 10 back up never arrived and we had to leave the scene.
Our guys would be urged to enter alone by the control room telling them it would be ok...
Red 4 said:
That is a completely different scenario to the one you quoted in your earlier post (and referred to as gospel).
Like I said - deal with travellers on a site or encampment and you are more likely to encounter problems.
I think the recovery agent was wise not to enter alone and he should have been escorted by the police.
Saying police are scared to stop travellers for motoring matters is plainly wrong though IME - I potted more than a few.
I have been stopped a couple of cars behind a Police car when travellers blocked a main road to hold a horse and cart race. This was at 5.30pm on a weekday. The Police officer did nothing. We then effectively had a rolling road block with a Transit van in the middle of the road behind the racing horses. A car got a bit fed up of this and tried overtaking the Transit, which violently swerved at the. Again, nothing from the Police car. We then had to follow this procession to a motorway roundabout, which they managed to block off so they could race round and back the way they had come. Yet again, the Police car ignored this and drove off towards town. Absolute joke. Like I said - deal with travellers on a site or encampment and you are more likely to encounter problems.
I think the recovery agent was wise not to enter alone and he should have been escorted by the police.
Saying police are scared to stop travellers for motoring matters is plainly wrong though IME - I potted more than a few.
Greendubber said:
Grahamdub said:
rscott said:
Presumably a single crewed car? If backup wasn't available, I'm not surprised they didn't get involved.
We were held up for at least 20 minutes. Plenty of time to get back up.poo at Paul's said:
Looking at the aerial photos of the various sites connected to this one has to wonder why the f
k we all put up with it and accept how these people chose to live.
Houses that cost someone 750k or so in a green and leafy well kept area, then you have this fking sthole, just take a look at the aerial shots. Considering how fking green we are all told we need to be nowadays, look at all the burned out shyte on this land.
Seriously, why the fk do we allow it. Why is it ok to have these ‘people’ live like this? When others have to pay st loads to live next to it and keep the area nice.
Dirty fkers
It’s not so much the house values, it’s the fact that people have chosen to live peacefully in that area because of its location, will have worked hard to get to afford a property there and have a right to enjoy what they have without total scum buggering it up on a daily basis.k we all put up with it and accept how these people chose to live. Houses that cost someone 750k or so in a green and leafy well kept area, then you have this f
king sthole, just take a look at the aerial shots. Considering how fking green we are all told we need to be nowadays, look at all the burned out shyte on this land. Seriously, why the f
k do we allow it. Why is it ok to have these ‘people’ live like this? When others have to pay st loads to live next to it and keep the area nice. Dirty f
kers Being council owned the neighbours could have a Human Rights case against it - their quiet enjoyment of their own property being adversely affected by morons on council land.
And the same goes for anyone living near one of these shanty towns ridden with crime.
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