A Level Results....guess what :-)
Discussion
MikeyT said:
So the invigilators allowed you to suddenly stand up, pack the old lucky gonk into your pencil case and stroll out of the gym did they? I call BS! (and I sat mine in '78)
Yes, absolutely.I am now an exam invigilator myself and I am well aware of current protocols. However, as has been pointed out often, things were different then. For your information we did not take our exams in a gym, each class took them in their own classroom, invigilated by teachers.
The fact that this was a private school may have something to do with it, but I can assure you this is what happened.
grumbledoak said:
You can't do that in a traditional exam; it's just what you remember. Judging coursework is part of the con.
Is the real world simply about what you can remember there and then? Remember, it's also easier for people to find plagerisation, as they can search the very same Internet as the student did. Personally, I think coursework is as valid an examination as a 2 hour exam. ChiChoAndy said:
grumbledoak said:
You can't do that in a traditional exam; it's just what you remember. Judging coursework is part of the con.
Is the real world simply about what you can remember there and then? Remember, it's also easier for people to find plagerisation, as they can search the very same Internet as the student did. Personally, I think coursework is as valid an examination as a 2 hour exam. Otherwise it's not guaranteed to be the student's own work and, often, probably isn't.
Examinations don't just test recall of facts, questions can easily be written to probe comprehension, application and synthesis.
There are indeed services now to universities mostly but exam boards and schools may also be buying in these days, where a sample of students' work is used to detect plagiarism. As a lecturer and assessor on Masters programmes I've found it myself without paying a fee.
ChiChoAndy said:
Is the real world simply about what you can remember there and then? Remember, it's also easier for people to find plagerisation, as they can search the very same Internet as the student did. Personally, I think coursework is as valid an examination as a 2 hour exam.
No. And no again.Being able to find information is a valuable skill, but first you need to know roughly where to look (memory, even if vague). And the few teachers cannot be expected to find plaigarism from the many students. Those prepared to game the system have it much easier this way.
I never said just have coursework. I'm more than happy to have both, as did I. As I said, real life is seldom about "TELL ME EVERYTHING YOU KNOW NOW!", rather it is deadlines, research, ability to make cognitive argument, and aso on, and so forth. Do both. I have no problem with that whatsoever.
Ten Ninety said:
And they have to do this whilst battling the mind-bogglingly immense social stresses of an always-connected life; stresses that I, as a child of the 70s and 80s, couldn't even have imagined let alone coped with. They deserve some credit for that.
Why is that though? What do they think they're missing out on if they're NOT in constant contact with a million Facebook friends seemingly every hour of every day? Our generation simply can't understand it. Being part of some imagined online scene? My 20yo son gets panicky and angry if his phone leaves his side for more than a few minutes in the daytime ... even at work it's text, text, text, text, text, text, all bloody day long to god knows who, about god knows what - absolutely nothing 99% of the time ...He could NOT do without his phone for a day - he just couldn't do it - younger daughter is the same - christ, the argument we had about her not getting any credit - it was as though I cut off her oxygen ...
Don't understand and I suppose I never will ... as the bloke in Outnumbered said in an episode, why do the young text from outside to say they are here (friends etc) have they never heard of a f
king doorbell?Kwai Chang Caine said:
Who'd have thought it? This year's kids are cleverer and better educated than last year's!
Not in Wales we am not.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14576179
at least it gives the papers an excuse to print lots of photos of teenage girls jumping in the air. Don't boys take A Levels too?
http://sexyalevels.tumblr.com/
http://www.lbc.co.uk/papers-celebrate-a-level-succ...
http://sexyalevels.tumblr.com/
http://www.lbc.co.uk/papers-celebrate-a-level-succ...
Edited by rover 623gsi on Friday 19th August 18:57
I'm in my 60s but I've been putting in a fair bit of work on A-level course work. Not so much this year but last year and the one before were quite hectic at times.
I've worked on two bits of coursework consecutively where the same paragraph, word for word, has appeared, and not quoted in either. I told both authors but neither seemed fussed.
It’s not easy work, at least for me. I have to use their vocabulary rather than mine, and sometimes I think they just don’t have the words necessary to describe what they want.
The MO is that I get some copy. I’m asked to check through it, making corrections to the grammar and spelling (spelling with spell checkers?) and to ‘make it read better’. It’s simple enough with track changes to show what I’ve done.
A few times I’ve all but rewritten the work. I’ve told one mother (it’s always the mothers who ask) that the teacher will notice that it is not her daughter’s work (as it was literate) but she said it didn’t matter as teachers expect parents to do it for them and in any case what they want is high grades.
Comments from teachers?
I know who most of the kids are. From what I can understand all went to university.
‘I’ got straight As once.
The odd thing is that I never rewrote anything for my kids. I pointed out where they could do better and left them to improve the copy themselves. I feel guilty about it now. It would appear that this left them comparatively burdened. Mind you, I’ve only one kid at uni now and I would be more than willing to rewrite anything she wanted me to but she’s 29 and doesn’t need dad anymore.
I started by doing it as a favour for a friend's daughter. Then she told her mates and another came along. I refused, saying that I was bit overwhelmed by other work but she, the mother, persisted. I felt I shouldn't be doing it but as the mother said, those kids with parents who could help (i.e. were literate) helped their kids and all I was doing was acting in loco parentis (not her words).
For a while it sort of mushroomed and parents who were quite capable of helping their own kids but couldn't be arsed came along. I knocked it on the head last year but I gave in to a few pleas.
It was overwhelmingly for female students.
I put the number of A grades recenlty down to me. Mind you, I don't change the copy content as such. I did a fair bit of history course work and you would not believe some of the stuff spouted, not only contrary to facts but to some of the copy they've filched directly from Wiki (please rewrite that bit so it seems as if it is my daughter's.) I leave it in. After all, it might be what they are being taught.
I've worked on two bits of coursework consecutively where the same paragraph, word for word, has appeared, and not quoted in either. I told both authors but neither seemed fussed.
It’s not easy work, at least for me. I have to use their vocabulary rather than mine, and sometimes I think they just don’t have the words necessary to describe what they want.
The MO is that I get some copy. I’m asked to check through it, making corrections to the grammar and spelling (spelling with spell checkers?) and to ‘make it read better’. It’s simple enough with track changes to show what I’ve done.
A few times I’ve all but rewritten the work. I’ve told one mother (it’s always the mothers who ask) that the teacher will notice that it is not her daughter’s work (as it was literate) but she said it didn’t matter as teachers expect parents to do it for them and in any case what they want is high grades.
Comments from teachers?
I know who most of the kids are. From what I can understand all went to university.
‘I’ got straight As once.
The odd thing is that I never rewrote anything for my kids. I pointed out where they could do better and left them to improve the copy themselves. I feel guilty about it now. It would appear that this left them comparatively burdened. Mind you, I’ve only one kid at uni now and I would be more than willing to rewrite anything she wanted me to but she’s 29 and doesn’t need dad anymore.
I started by doing it as a favour for a friend's daughter. Then she told her mates and another came along. I refused, saying that I was bit overwhelmed by other work but she, the mother, persisted. I felt I shouldn't be doing it but as the mother said, those kids with parents who could help (i.e. were literate) helped their kids and all I was doing was acting in loco parentis (not her words).
For a while it sort of mushroomed and parents who were quite capable of helping their own kids but couldn't be arsed came along. I knocked it on the head last year but I gave in to a few pleas.
It was overwhelmingly for female students.
I put the number of A grades recenlty down to me. Mind you, I don't change the copy content as such. I did a fair bit of history course work and you would not believe some of the stuff spouted, not only contrary to facts but to some of the copy they've filched directly from Wiki (please rewrite that bit so it seems as if it is my daughter's.) I leave it in. After all, it might be what they are being taught.
Edited by Derek Smith on Friday 19th August 20:31
ChiChoAndy said:
So you are rewriting kids coursework for them, and so on? How is this going to help them?
Indeed. The first being a friend it was done as a favour. For the second, she was a single mother, running her own business and far from literate. She felt she was failing her daughter as every other child had help from their parents. From then on it became difficult to refuse. I used to point things out, where they'd gone wrong and how they could improve it themselves but more to placate my feelings of guilt that in any hope that they might read it.
One might ask how course work, where it is accepted that parents will help their children, can be used to assess a pupil. I was happy to do it where parents were not that capable themselves but the morality of that is confusing. However, as I said earlier, some parents just couldn't be bothered themselves. These kids probably deserved my help more I think. They were deprived.
I only ever did it at the instigation of the parent(s). It is called passing the buck.
If you look on the internet you can find adverts for writers to do just what I used to do. Doesn't make it right of course but it shows that course work is not a way to assess kids.
EDITED TO ADD: I've checked through two theses. I've got two two ones. Theset weren't rewrites and all I did there was suggest alternatives. I say all but they were hard work. I was happier doing that. Not only that, they made interesting reading. One was a history degre, the other history of art. Both times I got a bottle of wine over and above the fee. Mind you, as I'm tea total it was the thought that counted.
-- I would do theses again if anyone is interested --
Edited by Derek Smith on Friday 19th August 21:17
Derek Smith said:
I'm in my 60s .......I started by doing it as a favour for a friend's daughter. Then she told her mates and another came along. I refused, saying that I was bit overwhelmed but she persisted. I felt I shouldn't be doing it but as the mother said, all I was doing was acting.
For a while it sort of mushroomed and I was quite capable, but some of the kids but couldn't take it in the arse. I knocked it on the head last year but I gave in to a few pleas.
It was overwhelmingly for female students.
I have a fair bit of history. You would not believe some of the stuff spouted. They've felched me as if it is my daughter.I leave it in. After all, it might be what they are after.
Just rejigged that course work a bit for you, Derek. For a while it sort of mushroomed and I was quite capable, but some of the kids but couldn't take it in the arse. I knocked it on the head last year but I gave in to a few pleas.
It was overwhelmingly for female students.
I have a fair bit of history. You would not believe some of the stuff spouted. They've felched me as if it is my daughter.I leave it in. After all, it might be what they are after.
Edited by Derek Smith on Friday 19th August 20:31
Edited by s3fella on Friday 19th August 23:00
Derek Smith said:
Indeed.
The first being a friend it was done as a favour. For the second, she was a single mother, running her own business and far from literate. She felt she was failing her daughter as every other child had help from their parents. From then on it became difficult to refuse. I used to point things out, where they'd gone wrong and how they could improve it themselves but more to placate my feelings of guilt that in any hope that they might read it.
One might ask how course work, where it is accepted that parents will help their children, can be used to assess a pupil. I was happy to do it where parents were not that capable themselves but the morality of that is confusing. However, as I said earlier, some parents just couldn't be bothered themselves. These kids probably deserved my help more I think. They were deprived.
I only ever did it at the instigation of the parent(s). It is called passing the buck.
If you look on the internet you can find adverts for writers to do just what I used to do. Doesn't make it right of course but it shows that course work is not a way to assess kids.
EDITED TO ADD: I've checked through two theses. I've got two two ones. Theset weren't rewrites and all I did there was suggest alternatives. I say all but they were hard work. I was happier doing that. Not only that, they made interesting reading. One was a history degre, the other history of art. Both times I got a bottle of wine over and above the fee. Mind you, as I'm tea total it was the thought that counted.
-- I would do theses again if anyone is interested --
Why worry, I proof read all Mrs. WG's work for her MA and suggested better construction of the content.The first being a friend it was done as a favour. For the second, she was a single mother, running her own business and far from literate. She felt she was failing her daughter as every other child had help from their parents. From then on it became difficult to refuse. I used to point things out, where they'd gone wrong and how they could improve it themselves but more to placate my feelings of guilt that in any hope that they might read it.
One might ask how course work, where it is accepted that parents will help their children, can be used to assess a pupil. I was happy to do it where parents were not that capable themselves but the morality of that is confusing. However, as I said earlier, some parents just couldn't be bothered themselves. These kids probably deserved my help more I think. They were deprived.
I only ever did it at the instigation of the parent(s). It is called passing the buck.
If you look on the internet you can find adverts for writers to do just what I used to do. Doesn't make it right of course but it shows that course work is not a way to assess kids.
EDITED TO ADD: I've checked through two theses. I've got two two ones. Theset weren't rewrites and all I did there was suggest alternatives. I say all but they were hard work. I was happier doing that. Not only that, they made interesting reading. One was a history degre, the other history of art. Both times I got a bottle of wine over and above the fee. Mind you, as I'm tea total it was the thought that counted.
-- I would do theses again if anyone is interested --
Edited by Derek Smith on Friday 19th August 21:17
That was way back though, pre Wiki and was based upon individual work.
The test of the award is in the use of it.
That's where the charlatans should be found out.
Derek Smith said:
A few times I’ve all but rewritten the work. I’ve told one mother (it’s always the mothers who ask) that the teacher will notice that it is not her daughter’s work (as it was literate) but she said it didn’t matter as teachers expect parents to do it for them and in any case what they want is high grades.
Sadly, when the only way teachers are held accountable is by looking at the grades their classes achieve, the chances of a teacher rejecting a student's work because they suspect it might not be entirely their own are, in my experience, precisely none. Indeed, many will pitch in and write sections for students themselves if the parent appears deficient in their 'support'. The canniest 'helpers' are adept at writing content in teenage spacker-speak for added authenticity (SPAG counts for very little outside of English anyway) which means their input is impossible to detect at moderation. The exam boards do have very advanced systems for detecting internet plagiarism, and are pretty good at picking up where students have copied each other verbatim. But they haven't really got much of a hope against a determined teacher or parent who
More recently, coursework has been replaced by 'controlled assessment' which involves more direct supervision by the teacher. Students are often 'not allowed' to take coursework away from school. The intention was to address the issue of parental input into coursework. Of course, with the 'performance-managed' teacher left in charge of this supervision, the blind eyes remain.
Never mind. In typical government baby/bathwater style, the plan is for pretty much all coursework and controlled assessment to be abolished in a couple of years. A real shame, as when it's properly implemented it's a superb complement to an examination. Sadly, like all the post-Baker education ministers before him, Gove remains obsessed with using grades to measure teacher performance and as long as that view persists, teacher assessment will remain unreliable. It will be interesting to see if he survives the 'shock pass rate fall' headlines that we will be discussing in 2014. I suspect he will, and it will be the teachers who take the fall.
Ten Ninety said:
Derek Smith said:
A few times I’ve all but rewritten the work. I’ve told one mother (it’s always the mothers who ask) that the teacher will notice that it is not her daughter’s work (as it was literate) but she said it didn’t matter as teachers expect parents to do it for them and in any case what they want is high grades.
Sadly, when the only way teachers are held accountable is by looking at the grades their classes achieve, the chances of a teacher rejecting a student's work because they suspect it might not be entirely their own are, in my experience, precisely none. Indeed, many will pitch in and write sections for students themselves if the parent appears deficient in their 'support'. The canniest 'helpers' are adept at writing content in teenage spacker-speak for added authenticity (SPAG counts for very little outside of English anyway) which means their input is impossible to detect at moderation. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff